Science Friction

Our storied trio discusses the implications and recent obsession with  AI ( Artificial Intelligence), exploring its ramifications in storytelling, marketing, entertainment, and a whole lot more. 

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Hey,
everyone.
Welcome back.
I got the Folk Tellers here,
Joseph with Kurt David.
I'm here.
Uh second week,
second time.
Happy to be back again.
And who's across from me is the,
the malu like that's my favorite word.
I understand technology.
But you would know way too many words for me,
man.
It's a compliment.
It's a compliment.
It is a compliment in today,
by the way,
is that,
well,
if it is,
well,
actually this is not,
I,
I,
I've already lied because I,
this is not me.
This is a I Joseph talking.
Uh we are all a I here because we're talking about what we're calling science friction and the rub between what is fiction and what is real in this world because who knows anymore?
So we're gonna get,
we're gonna get into that a little bit about.
So we were talking about already about A I It's everywhere,
it's infiltrated everywhere.
So where's the science friction coming?
Because A I,
you know,
yeah,
we're gonna get into this and I'm really excited about talking about it.
But what's the science friction part of it?
Do you think?
Like I,
I feel like we're living in a fictitious world now,
like this is stuff you read about and HG Wells and Jules Verne and the early science fiction Isaac.
As,
what about for those of us that didn't read at that stage?
Right?
Or didn't read those books?
What was it about those that?
Ok.
So there's a book by Roald Dahl.
Everyone knows Roald Dahl from uh Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
He wrote a book called The Great Gramatica I think or The Great Chromatic Machine.
I'm not,
there's no computer in front of me.
This is just my brain.
This is my A I brain.
So cut me some slack.
But this,
it's a short story and what it's about a machine that has a bunch of different lovers and with your feet and your hands,
you can write a novel.
So by different kinds of pressure,
the great chromatic and you can,
you can write a novel.
Well,
now you can without your feet without,
without your feet,
you will prompt a prompt.
So Steve,
OK.
So Steve's gonna Steve,
will he jump in without even a prompt?
Because he was texting me and calling me when he got on Chad GP T or whatever.
He's like,
do you know what this thing can do?
And then he's like sending me books like I just gave it.
It's,
it's all about the prompts and he like,
he like blew my phone up for like three days.
Yeah.
Well,
he got on the inside of some,
something,
something.
But what was it,
what was it for?
I can tell you,
I'd have to kill you.
Let's back up a little bit.
And I'm a IA,
I stands for a,
I stands for artificial intelligence,
meaning,
meaning what,
what's the artificial part of it?
Ok.
There's,
there's no intelligence,
there's no intelligence,
intelligence,
it's not real.
Is that what artificial?
I mean,
when I think,
think of the word artificial,
I think of something not real.
Right.
Right.
And so we're talking about not real intelligence.
Well,
let's defer exactly.
That's my point.
He's the engineer,
he's the,
he's the technician.
How would you,
uh,
what definition would you give a,
I,
I wouldn't call it A I,
what they're calling A I today I wouldn't call it A I,
it's machine learning.
Maybe that,
that ties into big data databases and,
um allows people to run certain queries and they get certain results back based on what,
you know,
you've,
you've entered,
but I wouldn't call it artificial intelligence.
It's definitely not terminator two type stuff where we should be afraid and,
and worried that,
you know,
some type of robot is gonna come and kill us and,
and sent in and,
you know,
that type of,
that's a great point.
Not when did this happen?
That it became a IP instead of machine learning because it,
it's,
it's marketing,
it's,
it's,
that's literally what it is.
Someone decided.
Oh,
it's gonna be,
we're gonna call this artificial intelligence.
And we've seen that,
you know,
many times in movies.
So because of that,
where brains join the dots,
it becomes marketing.
It's the stories,
we always go back to stories.
It's the stories that we've been telling,
you know,
about this technology.
The technology's been around for years,
like in the fifties,
you know,
they've been working on it.
The thing is now it's coming into the consciousness of the general public.
And so now we're all worried about it is because now we see it for what it potentially could do.
So,
to me,
when I use a program that creates text,
that doesn't make any sense or lies in many cases.
Right?
I'm not too worried about that.
Ok.
So linguistic A I is what they call it.
I,
the people that have concerns about it,
I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Ok.
So wait,
because then what do we need to because your word,
because your word program is not gonna come out of your computer and beat you over the head and kill you.
All right.
So,
so don't worry,
is it gonna put you out of a job?
Um,
well,
if people want fake stories.
Yeah,
absolutely.
It could put you in that way.
Now.
Uh Yes.
And in many cases,
I think that,
that they have been producing that and that,
and,
and,
but the thing is we know as humans,
what is real and what's creative,
it's not,
hang on.
I have to challenge you with that because I don't know that as a fact that we know as humans what's real and what's not right now.
I mean,
honestly,
because,
you know,
we were talking earlier when I asked about the definition of what is a i,
it's artificial intelligence which means it's not real intelligence but what is real and what's not.
Right.
Let me rephrase it.
We know what's good and bad.
If I watch a really bad movie with a bad story,
I know that.
Right.
Yeah,
but that's,
that's subjective course,
of course.
OK.
So here's what I would argue.
I would argue and argue a little um as a writer if I my,
my commercial work is formulaic writing.
So I'm writing marketing company or copy or I'm writing um copy for a medical device company or I'm doing legal.
Um A I can do that with the right prompts now,
I'm out of a job as a right now.
Creative writing.
Yeah,
it'll have a tougher time.
I mean,
it could,
it could,
it could model my writing style.
I'm less concerned about that,
but I'm more concerned about as a,
as a profession.
If you're doing anything where that can be replicated in a formula of fashion that spooks me.
Let's use legal for example,
because you just mentioned that right?
There's been templates for legal documents for years.
Did it put lawyers out of jobs.
No,
I mean,
is this linguistic A I gonna stand in court for you and represent you?
I don't think so.
OK.
So then what you're saying?
And I've heard other people say this is if you as a professional,
if you lean into it and use it like,
OK,
so for creative writing,
I've heard people,
it's great for idea generation.
Like if you give it the right prompts,
it can give you ideas,
it can give you sample writings.
Um It'll kind of sharpen your pencil for you.
I,
I read a very interesting article recently by Richard Branson,
um who Virgin Airlines.
He's dyslexic,
right?
And the article that he had wrote was talking about how A I could be uh uh aggregate for people with dyslexia,
other challenges as far as putting those thoughts on the paper.
In other words,
you know,
struggling to say,
how do I put what I have in my head on this paper?
Well,
if I can use A I as an aggregate to begin that it's not gonna take the full creative aspect of it,
but it's gonna,
at least with the right prompts as you said,
you're gonna get that started.
And I think about,
you know,
Asperger's,
I think about people with autism,
I think about people with a DH D,
you know,
getting those thoughts on the paper can be challenging and if it's a tool which I would see it as is a tool that can be used in education to help with that.
That's a benefit then.
Yeah,
I think,
I,
I agree.
I think it's all in the way that you're gonna use it.
I mean,
I'm a proponent of Human Centered design.
And the,
what does that mean?
Human Centered,
Human Centered design is the idea that whatever you're designing or building,
it begins with the human component,
the human interaction,
it started from architecture,
like there's a out in San Francisco,
there's uh an association called ID O and they design buildings and work spaces and public spaces.
They begin with like,
OK,
who are the human beings that are gonna live there?
Yeah.
And they build the space around it.
And so like when I,
when I write or whenever I create anything,
like especially my commercial workers all in learning performance and education,
I do it from Human Centered Design.
So like,
what's the learner like,
who are they,
where are they,
what are they doing those type of things?
And I think like a I could,
if you take a Human Centered design approach,
the human beings really become the curator.
So you've got this tool that can generate a lot of content based on prompts.
And so it can give you that information back whether it's accurate or not is not right?
Relevant,
but um that you could um curate that then and say,
OK,
now I'm a human being looking at this and I'm gonna decide I'm gonna separate the wheat from the chaff.
So,
but,
but you have to think and,
and,
you know,
use your intelligence to do that.
Some people take things at face value.
That's the problem,
the bingo because if I go to a,
I,
and I type something in and it spits back,
you know,
three or four different paragraphs of content if I'm not wise enough or that they're able to discern enough.
I might think that's true.
So,
you know,
and it's the,
the fact of the matter is it's not true.
In many cases,
you can actually play with the accuracy of the results.
There's a,
there's a setting for them,
you can manipulate them is that you can say more creative,
less creative.
Did you know that?
Yeah,
you can.
And so what does that really mean?
II,
I look at it as a lying toggle.
It's like lie to be more or lie to be less.
But either way what you're getting back is BS,
it's not real information now,
can it help you,
um,
with the idea,
uh,
idea creation?
Yeah,
sure.
It can.
But a lot of things can,
I mean,
I can open up a book and I can look at something.
A matter of fact,
I don't,
not sure it was HG wells but it,
it could have been.
But a lot of them,
when they're writing,
they will fill the room with all kinds of different artifacts.
So their,
their offices are like,
complete messes,
right?
To inspire,
well,
to give them ideas.
I mean,
your brain,
that's the way your brain works is you look at something and go,
yeah,
that and that,
and that,
and all of a sudden,
you know,
you're writing a science fiction novel or whatever.
Um,
but,
um,
but this is no different.
I,
I mean,
but if you're going to rely on it,
like it's actual real information that is the scariest component to A I.
And I don't even like to call it A I because it's not,
it's machine learning.
Yeah,
with,
with a,
with a,
with a data set like GP T three has a certain size data set behind it,
right?
GT four has a larger data set.
So every time they come up with another version of this,
it's gonna be based on a more on more data.
However,
it's not coming up with the stuff.
We are still feeding it the data.
So it's making it out of the stuff that we already know it's pre existing information,
whether it's music,
whether it's an image,
whether I mean,
and GP T is for,
for linguistics.
But like there's other algorithms specific for making an image or you know,
music or whatever,
but it's still using what we've already created to make something that they call new.
Well,
is it really new?
I guess it is in a way but it's not new in the,
in the sense of how we create.
Is it true that by using the A I,
you're feeding it,
like,
because you're expanding the data set by,
it doesn't expand the data set.
But aren't they,
are you signing away your,
by you by actually using it and putting your own stuff in it?
Is that gonna feed the next data set possibly,
or,
or is it already fed from what's already out?
Yeah,
I mean,
there's,
it tells you it's only good up to like a certain date but you're putting,
you're not just,
um,
acquiring,
you're putting,
you know,
you're putting stuff in there what they're doing on the back end,
you use a book to convert to a script as an example.
Right.
Yeah,
I'm sure you're,
you're basically putting all that data into their database,
how they're using it.
I have no idea.
You'd have to get into the bowels of,
of what they're doing or whatever.
But there's a reason and,
and that's a great point that you brought up,
um,
why they give it to us for free?
Exactly.
Nothing is for free.
Facebook's not for free for a reason.
I mean,
they,
they've got all our data but now they,
they,
they literally could take a lot more,
a lot more things and when I say they,
I mean,
they,
the people that are running those particular applications,
right.
And who is it?
Well,
it's a bunch of different people,
people.
So they create the application they put it out there.
Like right now,
I mean,
I'm a,
I'm a technologist.
I,
I am a technocrat.
I mean,
I,
I don't like to say that in many cases because I don't like the,
some,
you know,
what goes along with it goes along with it because,
um,
I believe that everyone's information is private,
but when you put your information into these systems and you're signing all the terms and conditions,
it ain't your data anymore.
You've literally given it to them.
Well,
and I,
I did a presentation last month at a technology,
a large National Technology Association and,
and leading up to that,
I did some homework,
right?
Just enough to be dangerous.
And one of the things I discovered is that Microsoft and Google are the two big A I players right now,
they're rolling stuff out,
right?
And one of the things that I,
I discovered there was a um 60 minutes did a segment with the Google CEO talking about A I and he talked about how I,
I like what he said,
he says A I,
machine learning,
whatever you wanna call it can be as human friendly or as detrimental to us as human allows,
right?
We,
we were in charge of it.
In other words,
he says it's one of the biggest things since fire,
since electricity,
he sees this as being a really big deal.
Um One of the things that was in that segment,
that kind of alarmed me because we talk about,
well,
what's alarming about it?
What is it that could be making it dangerous?
He talked about even on the video side that I could take a video and I could have your image with your voice and it could say whatever I wanted to say.
That's the part,
that's the part that is scary,
right?
If,
if I could take your video,
my video,
my image,
my voice and it's saying whatever somebody else wants it to say.
But is that a I?
No that you're using a program to replace the face with someone else's face and someone else's voice.
So it's not really a i it's just a program that someone,
someone written to make videos that are fake.
The internet and social media is just littered with fake videos and,
and,
and what do people do?
It's like,
hey,
look at this video,
you see this video.
Yeah,
this is true.
It's like,
how do you know it's true because it says it right here like,
OK,
stop click bait.
I think it's called,
right?
There's a lot of click bait out there trying to get people to click and uh because of the whole political scene and everything,
you don't know where,
what anything is anymore.
I mean,
it,
it's,
it,
it's impossible really to discern.
And so so to me,
I just back away from all of it.
This is the science friction.
That's the science,
the science because so,
wait,
wait uh Running Man,
the movie Running Man.
Do you remember that ladies with Arnold Schwarzenegger?
So that was a Stephen King short story.
And in that short story in that movie Arnold Schwarzenegger is a cop who's being directed to fire on people and he refuses to fire on the people who are waiting in the bread line.
It's this dystopia.
And so what they do is they,
they just modify the video tape and make it look like he did fire on the people.
And then,
you know,
he gets thrown in prison and then he gets thrown in the game show and,
you know,
great,
great action adventure.
That was a science fiction movie and now he,
that,
that was in the eighties.
Yeah,
that was like 30 years ago,
30 years ago and now it's real and now it's real.
And I think Steve,
you're hitting on a huge point.
It's like,
ok,
the science friction is what,
what's real and what's not.
It's like.
And now like,
you know,
so social media and media and they're using these tools,
there's,
they're using these morphine tools,
these facial augmentation tools A I machine learning.
So,
you know,
what,
what are you supposed to believe it end well before we get to,
I mean,
this is a storytelling podcast,
right?
So II,
I wanna tell a very real story about when I was writing my first book.
I,
I was writing a chapter about this former pro athlete that the first time I met him,
I swear he had to turn sideways to walk through the door.
His shoulders were that big,
right?
And jokingly,
he wears a size 15 Super Bowl ring,
which is like the size of my big toe.
Ok.
I'm getting ready to write his chapter and I was stuck.
I was totally stuck.
I'm thinking this guy won a Super Bowl.
He's wide.
Is that door?
He has a size 15 Super Bowl ring.
How do I open this up?
How do I start to even breach this conversation about this guy?
Well,
because of the fact that I was reading another book at that time called The The Wisdom of Our Fathers.
And it was about letters that were written about dads.
And one of the things that I read,
there was somebody that wrote about white collar and blue collar,
but not in association with the collar Association for workforce.
In other words,
we have the blue collar and white collar workforce,
but he talked about the blue collar and white collar hands that you could tell based on the fact that somebody has a certain type of hand that you can tell.
Well,
that's a blue collar hand,
right?
Or that's a white collar hand.
Well,
it struck me like a lightning bolt between the eyes.
I said,
that's it.
So I opened up that chapter talking about white collar and blue collar hands.
I kind of described that scenario and then spun it into this football player.
But the reason why I bring that up is because of the fact that I was creating,
right?
And,
and,
and I think about this now,
if I were to tap into chat or whatever to say,
hey,
create this chapter about this football player,
here's some prompts.
I don't know if it would have got that creative or if it would have tied those together and that's where the human factor is different than just what's regurgitating from this database.
It has no soul that's going back to what I said when you watch a movie,
you know,
as a,
as a human,
whether that movie has a soul or not,
the certain movies that we all know back in time it's like or a series or whatever,
it's like that show had soul and you can feel it,
it's the creativity that flows out of it when you're using programs and that to be able to,
to,
to,
to write something,
it doesn't have that soul,
you can tell well,
but in science fiction,
let's,
let's turn it back in science,
there's a lot of things made up,
right?
Characters are made up,
stories are made up in the sense of,
of science fiction,
so to speak.
So how do you differentiate between that soul of being real and that when writing?
Right?
And telling a story,
how am I supposed to know as a consumer.
If this is really from Joseph Bastian or if this is some mechanical learning monster that just spewed this book out.
This is complex because you can,
you can manipulate people at a primal level and there's a formula and they do it in entertainment all the time.
Really?
So.
Oh,
yeah.
Oh,
yeah.
Here's a,
here's a great example.
And military and military.
Yeah.
So what's that show?
Extreme home makeover where they,
where they do someone's house?
It's a total formula.
And my kids used to tease me because I,
I my eyes would water every time when they move the bus,
they move that bus and the family cry.
Oh my God.
It's so beautiful and like,
but it was a,
it was a formula and what they were doing,
it was emotional manipulation because the whole format of the show was you had people in need which immediately if you're an empathetic person,
you're like,
oh man,
you know,
and,
but now they're gonna get a new house and they're gonna have a new life and,
and,
you know,
in,
in a half an hour,
undercover boss,
that's another one.
Undercover boss formula.
So they know how to like the formula is,
you tap into those primal human emotions.
Um love,
fear,
joy,
like,
you know,
the uh the basic human emotions and they know what people's triggers are.
And unless you're like saying,
OK,
I'm being like manipulated here and I knew I was but I was still,
you know,
like Kodak commercials used to do that all the time.
It's like the moments of your life.
Kodak.
It's like,
oh,
and it's like,
oh,
yeah,
it was beautiful.
But the point is my point is you have to have enough self-awareness to get past that to see because that can be faked it.
And I mean,
the,
the A I or machine learning whatever isn't there yet.
But it will be because that's,
that's formulaic.
So they know what the emotional triggers are but they can,
it's only at a primal level.
Like there's,
I mean,
we're a lot,
the human mind is much more complex.
So yeah,
so once you get,
once you see that,
like,
ok,
you can get past that.
And that's why people,
you know,
in storytelling,
why people want to go deep because just sort of like boy meets girl,
boy loses,
girl,
boy gets girl.
It's like you see that enough.
It's like,
ok,
here comes the prince,
here comes the princess.
I mean,
there's times like like Christmas shows Christmas shows,
it's like you want,
you want them to be a certain formula because it's Christmas time.
You don't,
you know,
you don't want the dog to die for God's sake.
If he does,
there's another dog and isn't the hero's journey a formula?
Absolutely.
There you go.
I mean that we've been writing stories using that,
you know,
a story arc for,
for years.
So So there,
those are archetypes,
they're models and those models exist and they use them all the time.
And the thing is,
is to acknowledge that and eventually the science fiction will get better at working within those models.
And it's up to us to say,
OK,
they're working in a model and I see it um the,
the big thing.
So as back to me,
as a uh as a writer,
I think the,
the X factor is that uh when you're truly creative,
you begin to make connections.
Steve pointed this out like uh the people,
the creative people who have rooms because he actually,
he actually described my office.
It's got all little like weird kick knack things around and things that don't make sense.
What's the weirdest that you have in there?
What is the hottest you would say in your office?
Uh I've got a really cool,
like African mask,
like a carved African mask.
But that,
that's right next to,
you know,
uh a soccer trophy,
rubber,
rubber duck.
I got a rubber duck in there.
I got a,
I got a,
how do I know it's real?
But it's not artificial.
Uh You just have to rhetorical,
silly,
I guess,
sarcastic question.
Anyway.
So,
but the connection,
it's about,
it's about um when you're creative,
you will make connections that are not necessarily logical,
more emotional that could be.
Yeah.
Or,
or it's a blend,
might be more philosophical and that's what the machine learning can't do because it's gonna follow a pattern,
right?
And truly creative,
people will often break the pattern and reconnect it.
It's like a,
it's like a tearing and putting together um multiple times over that.
To me that's what like kind of creativity is.
It's like,
when,
you know,
when I'm writing a book and like people,
like,
how do you,
do you,
you know,
do you write it from beginning to end?
I said,
no,
like you have an idea and you like,
you,
you kind of beat on it.
I said it's like a,
it's like a,
a rock polisher.
Like I'll have an idea and I'll put it in the Tumblr and either it'll pulverize it or it'll polish it go prettier than ever before.
Well,
it's interesting because when I speak to,
to kids,
you know,
two things.
II,
I always kind of look down your line,
Steve,
what you had shared about.
I,
I hated reading growing up.
I really did.
I didn't enjoy it.
I wasn't dyslexic,
but I just didn't enjoy it.
Right.
I just didn't have the focus for it.
And thank God though,
I had teachers that taught and,
and,
you know,
talked about the stories,
how to write a story,
how to read a story because it came in handy.
My third book coming out now,
but my point is this,
so what,
whatever we call it,
machine learning,
artificial intelligence,
unrealistic in intelligence,
whatever you wanna call it.
How does that apply to storytelling?
How do,
how does that apply?
Because I'm thinking about the folks that are listening to this right now and what is it that would be important for them to understand about this,
about this friction?
And how do we resolve this?
I,
I saw an advertisement on Facebook the other day and it said,
write a novel in 20 minutes using A I and I just started laughing and there's,
I'm reading through all the comments on what people are saying.
It's like,
I can't wait to get this and be a novelist.
And I'm like,
you gotta be kidding me.
And I said,
so I actually did write in there and I said,
you know what,
write your own,
it's more rewarding.
So because I mean,
it gets to that point where it's like,
am I gonna put the time and effort to do something of high quality or b am I just going to take the short cut?
It's like you playing basketball,
Kurt,
right?
Formerly,
right?
But what I'm saying,
I mean,
you know,
you could go around,
you know,
ways and be able to do the workouts or whatever.
You gotta put the work in,
you gotta put the work in and if you don't put work and you're not gonna get to that level of quality and I think the same applies to reading or whatever.
So if I decide that,
you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna use,
um,
A I or Chat G BT or,
or whatever you,
whatever you want and I'm gonna pull sections and,
you know,
and cut and paste it into my book.
You're gonna tell,
you're gonna be able to tell it's,
it's a,
it's a better polished turn.
Exactly.
Hey,
so I'm surprised at this point and there,
there hasn't been a,
a book come out to say this is the first A I written book.
Sure there is.
Has it,
has it been,
I mean,
if there is,
I'm not aware of any or a novel or something,
hey,
this is the first A I,
but everyone's trying to like,
like what you just said about,
you know,
write,
write your novel in 20 minutes,
everyone's trying to monetize it.
So it's a tool,
it's a tool as we've all said.
And other people are gonna say,
hey,
you know,
I,
I can,
yeah,
it's a short and there are no shortcuts like really un unless your end game is like,
OK,
I just wanna say that I wrote a novel,
then you can do it where,
where I see that it has applications is formatting.
What do you mean by that formatting?
Like I say,
I want to use it to fix grammar or I want,
I wanted to do stuff like that.
I mean,
it's,
it,
it works for that.
So there might be a case II,
I throw a paragraph in there and I say,
you know,
uh give me three different iterations of grammar on this.
Fix the grammar.
I mean,
those,
those are good things but it's not changing the context of,
of what it is.
Or if I'm um same formatting a script.
And I said,
I,
you know,
I wanna have all the proper script tags around this.
You can use it for that.
There's many things that are,
that are good that you can use it for.
But I don't call that artificial intelligence.
I call that as tools.
Well,
the same,
the same as if I was designing,
using CAD and I was,
you know,
designing car parts and 3D there work benches and stuff that I used to be able to make it easier for me to design that model.
This is no different than that.
I mean,
what you're literally describing is spell check on steroids basically is what it is.
That's what it is.
It's like,
I'm just checking grammar,
checking,
spelling,
grammar.
For example,
gram has been doing it a long time and you know,
it's like a plug in that you can put it,
you know,
into your,
uh into your browser and anything that you're,
you're typing inside the browser,
it'll actually,
you know,
fix the grammar and the spelling.
But I guess that's a I if you want to call it A I,
but it's not,
it's a tool,
these are tool sets that are,
that are meant for doing things it reminds me of because now like you can do that with images,
right?
So you can do prompts for images and it'll create air quotes,
it'll create uh you know,
image.
And I,
you got me thinking about,
you know,
think about photography.
So,
you know,
when we were growing up,
you were using film and then now it's digitized and then you've got all the Adobe Photoshop Suite to do all the,
it's,
I mean,
isn't it very similar to that?
Let me ask you this because you just struck record with me.
I was pulling up pictures of my dad on Father's Day from Father's Day on Google Photos.
But what was concerning was it,
it gives you when you do the search aspect of it in Google Photos,
you literally,
it gives you options of,
you know,
is it this person,
is it this person this they've already identified the person that I could just click on that and then all the photos with that face imaging?
Is that a form uh that's image recognition?
I I don't know why you know this,
but I actually have a patent.
One of my patents is on uh image compression.
What does that mean?
Well,
basically looking at the pixel level and you know,
making we,
we basically used it initially to make images smaller.
That's,
that's initially what why we we wrote it.
It was built into the ignite software that we had.
But you know,
when you're basically doing image recognition or facial recognition.
You're,
you're looking for shapes and all it's doing is looking at the shapes of the pixels and every image has all kinds of different shapes.
So those shapes all match right across the board.
The algorithm says,
yep,
this is all Kurt or this is all A I Joseph and you know,
and,
and,
and it pops them up on your phone.
So it's like,
you know,
that that's your dad or you,
you or whatever,
I mean,
um that's what it is.
But is that something we're talking about?
Science friction,
right?
Is that something we should be scared about?
No,
it's a tool that they're just tools,
you know,
I mean,
so where is the friction?
Where,
where is it that we start getting concerned about this machine learning,
artificial intelligence,
unrealistic intelligence,
whatever you wanna call it,
we should be worried about the truthfulness of the content that's being indexed into Google and you,
you've got Google and you know,
all these guys like,
hey,
yeah,
we wanna make sure all their information is correct.
No,
they don't.
That's fact checkers,
I think is the term that we hear more and more fact checking.
You.
Can,
you,
I,
I,
if that was the case,
there'd be no such thing as a a I just think about that for a second because if I can actually take,
you know,
a uh a journalistic article for example,
and I can make four or five different versions of it.
And then I can literally dump those into Google and get them indexed because of they're a new press release or whatever it is.
And it has a search engine optimization,
you know,
capabilities of one or whatever,
right,
which puts you to the top.
I can literally control search all day long.
Now,
Google and these companies,
they allow certain people to do that.
Usually the media based on how much money they,
it's just based on who they are.
And that's where,
that's where they get situated when they.
So that's a scary problem because the way that the Google algorithm works is this indexing all of those keywords,
right?
So if I'm using A I to make generate content and I and I have a very,
very good,
you know,
surp rate on Google all of a sudden I everything that I do,
I'm controlling search and what is,
what is that doing?
I'm controlling the population by doing that.
You control the story,
you're controlling the story.
So this is that's what's the tagline for the folk tell you.
So you've got problems with Facebook and social media,
you can control search and there's two types of search,
right?
You've got or you got the traditional search engine and then you've got real time search and real time search is social media.
It's like,
so for example,
on Twitter at Twitter has a search engine,
it has a feed that pops up.
OK.
Whoever,
whoever said it last,
they come up first,
it's the frequency that puts you first on Twitter.
And then obviously there's other things built into the algorithm relative to the amount of likes and retweets and all that stuff.
But all those factor into your position.
But on Google,
it's not about whoever said it last,
it's just,
it's about whoever is the best at the algorithm of and figuring that out.
And,
and to me with all the stuff that I've done in Hollywood when I look at that and I look at a I,
that's the scary part.
So,
so the tagline for the folk tellers universe is whoever holds the story wields the power.
Yeah,
and,
and leaders as well.
I mean,
it resonates across as a leader.
If I can tell a good story,
if I can tell a good narrative,
I can lead better as well,
right?
In sports,
like I,
I mentioned in our first episode that that sports uh you know,
stories are used to motivate and to inspire and to pull together,
right?
People together as a result of those stories.
And so,
but if the stories may not be true or there's the truth that is uh deformed in those stories,
right?
That's the concern.
So,
so this is the,
this is what's going on right now,
right?
There used to be something called article spinning where you could just take an article and you could actually spin it through.
We'll call it low level A I or machine learning or whatever you,
you spin it through an algorithm and it would spit out four or five different versions of that paragraph.
And then you could use those to create different landing pages to,
to control uh search engines.
Right.
Well,
this is our A I now,
if we call it A I,
this is that on steroids because now I can make tons and tons of content rapidly.
OK.
Relative to whatever story I want to tell.
Right?
And then get just basically cut and paste that and put it into a landing page.
It's click bait,
they're looking to get,
I mean,
you're impressing clicks by doing different versions of it too,
right?
You're appealing to a wider audience of some person might like this.
I mean,
not to get political but to get political.
Think about how that could be spun into politics.
And it is,
it is absolutely for that.
So this begs the question because I always say like,
well,
what's the solution?
And to me it goes back to curation.
So someone so what who is the authority?
Who's gonna say?
Yeah,
this is,
this is accurate is Elon Musk.
No.
And that,
I don't think there's an answer to that because it used to be,
it used to be,
you know,
back in the day you had organizations that were highly trusted,
whatever side of the aisle you're on.
You're like,
yeah,
that's,
you know,
we,
we,
this is an absolute,
this is,
yeah,
we,
we trust this organization and what they said that this is valid or invalid information.
Um,
and,
and it used to be,
it used to be higher education,
you know,
like if it was coming from,
from a university,
if Harvard said it.
Yeah.
But I mean,
I think,
I think a lot of that is just kind of,
I don't wanna say it's fallen completely by the wayside,
but it,
it a lot of it's been diluted and a lot of credibility has been lost for a lot of reasons.
And I think this whole,
that's another part of the science friction is,
you know,
technology is,
is amplifying,
it is amplifying the so what it boils down to me is what is truth,
right?
Because that's what's pulling up,
what's the real story,
real truth,
what everyone wants,
right?
Like what's,
what's the real story?
And,
and how do you,
how do you get to the real story?
And I think again,
this comes back to the,
the human being and it's the the gift of discernment.
It's like a now,
now the onus is on me as an individual to look at things from a balanced approach,
knowing that there's a lot of misinformation um that there's a lot of joke out there and I have to find some way to sift through it is it does,
it boil down to intuition,
like my human intuition of saying boy,
just something doesn't seem right here.
Is that what it boils down to?
I think so.
I think,
I think the number one skill in the future is gonna be discernment.
Yeah.
Meaning what define that?
Your ability to be able to discern what is true,
like what you just asked,
you know,
what is truth and it's gonna be,
it's a,
it's a skill that I,
you know,
a lot of people are gonna need.
Yeah,
it's a higher level skill because this goes back to those primal triggers because the information sources now are all playing on your fear,
love,
hate all those primal but those other emotions,
reptilian brain,
right?
Your,
your reptilian brain like and that's how we're gonna get one side against the other.
We're not,
there'll be no discussion,
there'll be no middle ground.
You are either for us or against us and here's all the information why you should be for us or why you should be against us.
And you know,
so so if I see videos or images or memes or whatever that,
that create an immediate emotion to me,
I'm shut off by it because to me that's immediate trigger that they are trying to manipulate me.
That's discernment and that's discernment.
That's the beginning of discernment.
Yeah.
Say,
wait a minute,
this looks like emotional manipulation.
Everyone should do that.
And like if you're reading something and it's like,
oh you know,
ok.
But you know an advertisement does it all the time.
Yeah.
But I have to ask you because what if it's something that I would deem good?
What if it's for a good cause or it's something?
But you know,
but you know that based on your,
on so,
but it's ok to have that emotion though.
If it,
that's the difference,
I guess.
How do you,
this is something you,
you look at something you go,
um,
that really makes me angry.
Right.
Right.
Yeah,
that happens all the time.
Yeah,
I mean,
you see these,
these,
uh,
I don't know what association it is with the,
with the animals,
the dogs,
right.
You see those commercials come on and they're,
I don't know,
those are probably the longest running commercials that I've seen are animals that are in,
in trouble and distressed and having to save him.
And,
yeah,
because people were being knuckleheads and why are they showing you that?
Because they want me to pay money,
they want me to,
to spend the money.
There's a,
there's an emotional manipulation with a call to action when you see that,
that should be a red flag.
Like,
ok,
I need to and I'm not saying those aren't good associations but it's,
it's,
it's a,
it's a cheap quick play to play upon that.
You're talking about your primal emotion.
It's,
it's harder when you're looking at things that don't have a call to action.
And when they have a called action,
you know that there's money involved,
right?
And you're trying to get your money,
right?
That's,
that's kind of easy.
But when it's things that are uh literally doing divide and conquer,
which is right across the board,
I mean,
we're dividing everyone into every different sec section sector we can possibly.
And uh and that's sad.
I think that right now to,
if I'm gonna say anything,
the biggest discernment we should have is like if this is separating us from other groups,
it's manipulation.
Yeah.
And this goes back to story what we,
what we tell the school Children,
right?
It's like all these individual stories that we all have,
they all feed up into the community which is humanity and that's undeniable.
We're all,
we're all human beings and we're all here.
So,
you know,
if there are ideas or images or things that are divisive and are separating us,
we should be questioning that if we're not allowed to have a dialogue,
if we're not allowed to different to,
to have difference of opinion,
those should be red flags for us.
So if I digest all this from our conversation,
one of the things I'm thinking about is,
you know,
I,
I think about the folk tellers,
right?
That,
that the telling of stories of over history and time and,
and the the contradiction of the artificial,
the machine learning,
the the spewing of information based on a database it,
it's almost like uh because I see this more and more especially currently where the people are trying to,
to remove stories from our society,
certain stories they're like,
well,
we need to remove this story because of this reason,
right?
This,
this that story that's been around for 500 years or 200 years or 100 years,
we wanna remove that story from society because of this reason is that in order to integrate the artificial in,
into the fake,
I mean,
that,
that's kind of a higher level question.
Yeah,
that's my question.
You know,
because it,
it's like,
boy,
you know,
we have these legacy stories that we've heard since we were kids and people beyond that even.
And it's just a matter I hear talk of,
well,
let's remove those because of this reason.
Is it to implement the artificial then?
Yeah.
II,
I think that's probably part of it.
I mean,
there's certain stories that don't resonate in modern times that that doesn't mean you should get rid of them,
you should keep them and look at them in the context in which they were,
they were written and told.
Um,
you know,
I think that's what real history is,
right?
It's trying to look at things in the context in which things were created or things and what we can learn from them.
Yeah.
Not in the lens of wherever you are now.
I mean,
that's so,
is it rewriting history could.
It potentially does science fiction,
rewrite our history.
It certainly could.
And as I was saying,
when you're using A I and it's pumping out this content that can be indexed into where people are searching,
then some people are gonna do a search.
This text that's been created in A I is gonna pop up,
someone will read it and go,
hey,
this is the truth just because they read it and it,
and it was high up on the ranks and it's just,
it's just absolutely ridiculous.
But you got me,
you got me thinking.
So I was in,
in,
in college,
I thought I smelled something over here.
And you think it's my A is and uh,
yeah,
there's an electrical fire in my,
my processor.
Uh,
you had to go to the library,
right?
And we actually,
the first time in the library they showed us how to use the Dewey decimal system.
So you could actually the Dewey decimal system that's still alive.
But probably you had card catalogs back then,
you know,
before the,
before the,
the internet.
But,
um,
so you had to go look up your sources and find your sources that were in a book that someone took republish.
So you talk about curation.
Um,
the fact that someone went to all that trouble to make that book and bind it and put it in a library and put it in a card catalog.
Odds were,
um,
it was a it was a valid source.
And I still remember I had AAA class on the Civil War and uh the professor said he was,
he was from the South and,
you know,
we're up here in Michigan and talk like this and uh he was such a hard ass.
It was a great class.
I got ac on my paper because it was on General mcclellan.
No,
it was,
it was a history class.
It was a civil war,
civil war history.
So he,
uh,
he's reviewing our papers and,
uh,
you know,
we had to go to his office and he smoked a cigar.
I mean,
he was like the southern gentleman.
He had the cigar and everything.
And,
uh,
so I'm sitting in his office and,
uh,
he goes,
Joseph,
when I said cite three sources,
I meant the best sources and that was it.
That's,
that's why I,
that's why you got to see.
And I said,
how am I to know what the best sources?
That's what you're in school for?
Well,
that's the question.
Now,
now,
what is the best source?
Yeah.
What is the best source?
Right.
So I picked three sources out of the Kresge library up at Oakland University and,
and they were,
they weren't the best sources on General mcclelland.
I wonder how he'd handle A I today if students are looking up and doing prompts to look up information off of it.
Yeah.
So here's what I think is gonna happen with education,
it's gonna,
it's gonna flip and you're gonna have the human component so that there's this whole concept in learning.
I was thinking about a decade ago,
they called it the flip classroom they were trying to do in high school.
So basically you do all your um book work and lecture outside the classroom.
So,
you know,
you use video and whatever and e-learning and so you do assignments and stuff and the classroom then is meant for the interaction and collaboration,
the collaboration,
working with your,
you know,
we used to call that cheating when I was growing up in school.
But now it's a collaboration team working together,
right?
You can take a test together these days even now.
So now I,
I think it gonna,
it's gonna go to that.
So like it's like,
yeah,
go do whatever you're gonna do outside in the classroom and like testing now maybe it's gonna be oral testing,
you know,
maybe it's gonna be OK or,
or more like case studies,
you know,
where now you have to present your case,
you know,
and uh you,
you're doing it in the classroom,
you're doing it live.
And now it's much more about human interaction than uh trying to measure someone's knowledge like soccer or basketball.
I mean,
if you're gonna test someone,
you're gonna have them go and do the schedule in front of you.
I mean,
um hard to do that with mathematics and yeah,
So I'm,
I'm thinking about the folks that are listening to this right now and what are the takeaways from science friction?
That could be a positive takeaway from this?
What is it that you see?
Because you know,
we can talk about the things that are challenges and a danger and a potential.
But what are some of the takeaways that folks listening could,
could walk away with something positive in your opinion?
Well,
as I said,
uh it is a tool,
right?
So as long as we,
we look at it and we use those tools to,
to help us with our daily lives and that,
that,
that enriches our lives and makes our lives better then,
then that's a good thing.
Um But as with anything,
I mean,
that's why I started writing that one science fiction book.
Um people can take technology and they can flip it and they can use it for good or evil.
I mean,
it's,
it's one or the other,
right?
And um so,
you know,
time will tell it does with,
with all pieces of technology.
But to me at this point in time,
it's not artificial intelligence,
it's not something that we should be getting this worked up about.
Um It's uh especially the linguistics side of the A I I would say,
um there's a lot more things in this world going on right now that we need to worry about other than that.
So for me,
I think that what you can get out of the science fiction?
That's good is it puts the onus and the responsibility back on the individual which a lot of people don't want.
You know,
it's,
it's kind of like uh the blue pill or the red pill.
Do you really wanna know?
You know.
But I mean,
if you,
if your glass is half full,
it's like I,
I am empowered and I am accountable and to me that's a very good thing.