Myth You So Much

Take an epic journey with Kurt, Steve, and Josef as they delve into the world of myth and legend, discovering the mythologies that encompass our daily lives, while asking the big question - Do we really need them anymore?

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Welcome to the FolkTellers stories to be shared podcast.
My name is Joseph Bastian.
I'm here with Kurt David and Mali Lewis.
Oh,
no,
Stephen Sadler,
Stephen Sadler.
Uh This episode is Myth.
You so much where we're gonna talk about mythology in storytelling and how it uh impacts modern storytelling.
So,
um,
I'm,
I'd like to begin with a book called Once and Future Myth.
It's a,
a passage from there.
It's a book by Phil Cos.
It was written.
It's probably a decade old time.
I,
I'll give you a quote.
But,
um,
this was a book that I,
uh,
Steve.
I know he has because I sent it to him and I know he hasn't read it.
Yeah,
you just said you had a stack of books for me that you,
that you haven't read.
So I never said I hadn't read them.
I said I have a stack of books from you.
That's what I said.
You did not know this title and I therefore assume that you do not.
So anyway,
but that's,
that's neither here nor there yet.
So I want to begin with a passage from this book,
which book,
the one that he sent you the one you didn't read once and future myths by Phil Cousin.
The quote goes,
the old storytellers knew that every life is mythic and that each of our myths are sacred secret stories.
And it is the outpouring of a deep longing for meaning which by some still unknown form of alchemy confers the purpose of our lives to those who go beyond appearances and seek the truth of their lives.
Everything is a symbol,
everything,
a story,
everything mythic and the discovery of these things back to the beginning is a coming home for all of us.
This is the deep urge to seek out the living meaning of myth.
Oh my God,
my brain hurts.
I got to check out for 15 minutes.
If I knew it was this good,
I would have read that book.
I'm sorry,
Joseph.
Well,
your loss.
Commissioner Sadler.
So,
so what does that mean define that for us?
Uh Simple.
Yeah.
So for,
for Kurt and other and other athletes,
former other former athletes with bad knees?
Let's talk about you had asked as we were when we were prepping.
Uh what's the difference between myth and legend?
That's the question.
What is that?
Because this is,
this is a,
this is a good team.
Uh So myth,
if you,
if you look up the definition,
it's stories that aren't necessarily based in fact and they're usually stories about how things came to be.
So if you think of the creation myth or how the uh I remember like when I was a kid now I'm like to total nerd out on you.
Um I had a,
a wood yard kipling book that was my favorite.
It's called Just so stories and it was how the elephant got his trunk and um how the crocodile got his tears.
And so it was uh stories of how things came to be and they're usually things in myth are things that are not fact.
Fact,
Odyssey would have been an example of a mythic.
Uh Yes.
Yeah.
Like,
you know,
people always think of Greek mythology.
And so how the,
how the sun was formed or how the oceans came to be that,
that's myth.
So legend is,
legends are built over time and they're based on some sort of real,
a real person or real place or fact.
So it's,
you could actually,
and they're usually tied to some part of history.
So like Stephen Sadler,
there's a legend.
Yeah,
there is a legendary component to him.
It's in his own mind,
but it is legendary.
You're OK.
You haven't read the book yet.
Did I give you my card?
All right.
So the t-shirt,
I,
I'll give you an example of a legend.
OK.
So ba you know,
based in fact,
based in,
in uh some space and time,
so I wore this t-shirt,
I showed you guys.
So it's,
it's this flag.
OK.
This is this is a non visual podcast.
I'm gonna explain it.
So it,
it's got a flag on it and the flag has three colors.
It's got red and white and black.
And along the side it says sea land.
And I asked these guys for sea land like like sea world,
but sea land.
And so I,
I asked these guys,
I said,
hey,
have you ever heard of Sea Land?
That the Principality of Sealand?
I thought Steve might know being from England,
but he,
he didn't know.
But so Sealand started uh as a pirate radio station back in the sixties.
So uh in World War two,
the,
the British built these defense forts offshore of,
of England.
So seven miles out was a big tower that they could,
you know,
it was a defense fort,
a fort was on it and you could land helicopters and other things on it.
And so those forts are still out there.
So in the 19 sixties,
uh a,
a group of people started a pirate radio station because it was out of the BB C's uh broadcast jurisdiction so they could,
they could broadcast whatever they wanted.
So it became a pirate radio station.
And then um after that,
this guy kind of took it over.
He said,
well,
I'm gonna turn this into a country now.
He,
he crowned himself king of sea land and his wife was the queen.
His son was the prince and he,
he battled back and forth over the decades.
This is an example of a legend where now you have the king of sea land and a principality of sea.
How does that happen?
That somebody just declares I'm the king.
My wife is the queen.
I mean,
that's happened many times.
This is,
this is he defended,
he actually defended himself against Britain and then he finally just dropped it and said,
ok,
you can,
you can have have the tower seven miles offshore.
Oh,
you're kidding.
But ok,
so the legend,
a part of this is,
well,
that's the legend,
the legend of sea.
So that is so it's based on fact,
based on fact,
it's based on historical things that actually happen.
But it's been what happens with the legend over time is it continues to grow to grow and it morphs like my basketball game,
it gets better every year after I'm done,
right?
So sports is a great,
that's fertile ground.
People,
people would say it's,
you know,
it's mythological heroes,
but it's actually,
you know,
in sports,
these people actually exist.
It's actually legend,
people,
people confuse the two iconic,
legendary.
Those are a lot of the terms we use in sports when you talk about somebody with great influence or great history,
right?
And so,
um I,
I guess one of the things for me is though we're talking about myth,
right?
And,
and that's different because that's a story that we basically create,
we create that story.
Yeah.
And I think,
um people,
so we began with sort of the difference between myth and legend.
I think in modern times it's kind of become gray because people will say,
oh,
that is right.
Yeah.
Because for me,
like myth,
it,
it's a way to describe eternal truths that you can't uh really get your hand on.
So you have to have a story and the story tells the myth and through the storytelling,
you discover sort of the truth within.
That's kind of like for me as a writer and like,
you know,
doing what we do with folk tellers and the stories resurrecting these old myths and legends.
That's what we're doing.
I mean,
well,
you have the,
the Detroit,
uh what's the Red Dude Rouge,
which is the red and that's a myth.
Yeah.
Or is that a legend?
Well,
I would say that it is actually probably like,
technically,
it's probably a legend because people actually saw this,
there's documented cases of Red Dwarf.
Now,
if no one had ever seen it and there were no documented cases.
Uh you could probably say that it was a myth.
It was something created really almost as a,
as an allegory to describe something like evil or,
or whatever it was.
But,
um,
but I'm interested in.
So let's,
let's go down the,
the rabbit hole of sports because so much of sports,
sports and athletics is built around,
you know,
the,
it really is like the hero's journey into the path and legend.
And why do you think this is,
why do you think sports is such a great metaphor for modern storytelling and modern myth and legend?
Well,
to simplify it,
you know,
I mean,
you have the rise,
right?
And,
and typically these,
these people rise and,
and the athletes rise out of um difficulty struggles,
challenges and then as they rise,
they,
they get to this legendary status and,
and that legendary status could be something as simple as,
hey,
I'm one of the 1/10 of 1% that plays professional,
right?
That's a legend or hey boy,
I'm,
I'm a legend in the scoring.
I'm a legend in the rebounding.
I'm a legend in a category.
But then they go through this journey where that goes away,
right?
In other words,
you go from being this legendary,
iconic person to suddenly just average Joe right back to the real world.
And that's kind of that journey,
right?
You go from this iconic legendary position to all of a sudden,
I'm an everyday everyday Joe and then recreating that success.
That's part of that journey.
How do they do that?
How can they do that?
They apply the things that they learned in sports?
Because to me,
the the the the important part of sports is the lessons that we learned from sports.
Because otherwise that journey ends,
like when,
when the sport ends,
that journey ends without that idea that I'm taking what I learned from sports and applying it to the next phase of my life.
And yeah,
and that's usually the phase that happens that nobody sees.
Right.
So the,
the lights,
the lights have gone off,
the press has gone home and you still have to have to live your life.
Yeah.
Well,
that's the reality of it.
The problem though is that if my identity is that legendary status,
in other words,
if I have that,
if,
if my story is my ID as a basketball player as an example,
if that's my identity,
when that's gone away,
that's when the struggles really happen,
right?
That's when these athletes that you read about,
they crash and burn,
they,
they drug addictions,
bankruptcy,
divorces.
Um Not that that doesn't happen anyway,
but it's just a matter of how impactful is that when it happens.
And so yeah,
the journey is very difficult.
I mean,
you,
you have this hero's journey,
right?
Where you become the hero,
you have overcome these struggles.
Uh A lot of these stories,
if you look at people that have,
look at the boxers,
right?
A lot of these boxers come from nothing and absolutely nothing and it's their way out and they fight literally to get out of that position.
Um You know,
Michael Tyson,
$300 million.
Think about that.
That's more than some country's gross domestic product.
That guy made over $300 million from his boxing career,
but yet he lost it.
Right.
And that was part of his journey is that he,
when he was done with boxing,
that money was gone.
And so,
um,
you know,
the sad reality is he's slowly trying to find that back to get that,
that journey back.
But it's,
uh,
it's not been the same.
Yeah.
And that,
I mean,
that,
that's kind of like you're your thing.
Like what you,
what you do,
Kurt is,
you know,
you've got your whole chain like a champion.
It really is a movement and it's like,
I think,
I think you are dealing a lot with fallen heroes.
Like,
and,
and what happens a a after the fall,
right?
And then I think,
you know,
so Steve,
you've been executive producer of the hero's journey.
We're,
I mean,
we're talking about the hero's journey right now and it's,
you know,
this,
this whole series and it's really,
you,
the focus of the series is,
is on the unsung hero,
like the heroes we don't even know about in music.
Why don't you talk a little bit about,
about that series uh with the,
with the black musicians and how all that came to be because,
you know,
Kurt's focuses on sort of after the fall of the hero.
And this is all mythological,
right?
And this is all we're dealing with,
with legendary and mythological people and places.
But,
um you know,
you've spent the past couple of years trying to bring this whole,
this whole hero's journey series to light uh trying to elevate uh the black musicians that people know but they don't know their story.
Some of them they know and some of them they don't.
And um it's kind of been,
it's one of those things that's really been lost to history and we can kind of get into why that was because this was like in the United States,
this was the segregation era.
This is where,
you know,
uh black artists had to play in black theaters and black venues.
And um and it was athletes too though it wasn't just the musicians,
it was athletes that deal with this as well.
It was also comedians,
anyone,
anyone in entertainment or,
I mean,
I guess sports is entertainment but anyone that they were,
they were uh in,
that was the environment they were in.
And so there were all these from,
you know,
so we're three white guys,
but we wouldn't have been able to see these artists and,
and even though they exist until like the mid sixties and then all of a sudden it was like,
you know,
bursting onto the scene but people like,
you know,
Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin and all,
you know,
all these other art,
well,
anyone who was ever made it to big into entertainment out in black entertainment,
um came out of that particular circuit,
um all the way,
as you said,
Otis Redding to um uh to Sam Cooke um to uh I can Tina Turner.
Um,
you know,
just,
there's,
there's many of them that came out of that.
Yeah,
I think even uh Richard Pryor came,
actually came out of that as well.
But,
um,
all of these stories are all heroes journeys and,
and I,
I think I mentioned in one of the other previous podcasts that a lot of these heroes journeys do not end well.
They actually,
and very sad in many ways.
And so you have this rise and,
you know,
to,
to success and then there's a fall and then you actually come back.
But then in many cases,
especially with some of these artists,
they die young and,
and it's,
it's,
it's very,
very sad um with the particular production that we're actually doing.
Um,
gorgeous George was the MC of this particular circuit and he's still alive.
Um And he was kind of the,
the,
the MC and the promoter and,
you know,
we talked about me the other day,
he was kind of the glue that kept everything together and,
um and allowed these people,
he kind of really actually kept people out of,
you know,
made people uh stay on the right track most of the time.
Uh In many cases,
they went off and did what they want.
And uh if they didn't pay attention to George,
guess what happened,
they got into trouble won't mention the names of,
of what you can look those,
you can look those particular records up through Google.
But uh and uh especially when our series come out,
you're gonna be able to see that for yourself as well.
But the series that we're creating is an animated series.
So it actually takes a lot of the music of the era.
It takes George's story.
It combines all the arts that we are actually talking about in the previous podcast where you're taking music and you're uh you're taking art,
which in this particular case is animation and you're bringing it all together and you're making a beautiful piece.
And um and,
and in this particular case,
it's gonna be a series but it,
it truly,
you know,
uh I i it is the story of this one individual and how he impacted so many other people's lives.
He literally,
he's still alive,
but he is a legend.
He literally is a legend.
So if you wanted to,
if you wanted to read up on a real legend that's still alive.
Gorgeous George is that,
is that person?
Yeah,
when there's a,
there's the unsung hero and the storyteller because think about it,
he was actually the MC that gave a lot of these artists their,
their,
their start.
And as uh I,
so Steve and I were actually uh down in Atlanta,
we,
we spent a couple of days interviewing Georgie.
He's like 85 years old now and a real storyteller and loved,
loved telling the stories.
And it was really interesting is his,
he had uh a healthy ego and his own sense of like his own style and his own,
he did his own thing.
But he was also the one he was like,
very giving and a very,
very kind person and was willing to lift people up.
And so is Steve always teases,
like I always say,
you know,
with folk tellers,
the tide lifts all boats.
And he was a guy that was willing to like lift all boats.
But,
you know,
he was not shy about saying,
you know,
his thing was,
he was like,
they called him gorgeous George because he was the sharpest dressed man,
you know,
and he had his own,
he had his own stick,
he had his own own act.
And,
uh,
before he brought everyone up,
he would put on a little,
you know,
a little performance and a,
a show for them and then he would,
you know,
bring people up and let them,
let them do their thing and he wasn't afraid of anything and he'll,
he'll tell you that even to this day,
I mean,
he's,
uh,
his daughter,
uh Brandy is also amazing.
She's still in the,
uh,
in the industry.
And,
um,
she actually works with Earth Wind and Fire and,
um,
she's got a lot of,
a lot of different stories of our own.
I mean,
as you can imagine,
uh,
working with that particular band but um so we talk about stories,
we talk about myths and ledges.
I mean,
there's no question that that hero's journey is one of those um storytelling platforms,
right?
And from glory days,
my,
my show and,
and the change like the Champion platform is about the glory days and the change of that.
One of the things that I'm seeing as a parallel is athletes,
entertainers,
which pro athletes are,
are entertainers,
military as well.
They are going through that hero's journey,
right?
They go from being the hero to all of a sudden,
boy and back to reality,
back to the Real World and a lot of them struggle with that and they're legends too.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And then how do they recreate their success and,
and,
and create that story to continue their success?
Right?
I,
I'd speak to more and more military.
I was talking to somebody who was a,
um,
uh special ops ranger and he talked about how he basically is.
I'm,
I'm trained to do a certain job.
That's it.
I mean,
that's,
that's what I'm trained for.
I mean,
for him it was very particular,
um,
it was taking somebody who was a bad person out of the pitcher and,
but he talked about that,
that's what I'm been trained for.
That's,
that's the hero,
right?
So to speak.
And now he's back in the real world and it's like,
well,
I can't play this.
I don't want you to apply this back in the real world per,
per se.
But um you know,
how do we recreate that success?
What's that journey?
How do you take that myth?
How do you take that legend and,
and continue that story?
So you got me thinking about the authenticity of the hero's journey of the hero.
So,
what we've experienced in the real world is we experience the hero being unsung,
basically going away and never,
never,
no one ever knowing or the hero falling and left to their own devices um to pick up the pieces.
So my question for you is,
where's the authenticity?
Is,
is the,
the myth or the legend of the hero a fallacy?
Is it,
is it,
is there really such a thing as an authentic hero?
And what is,
what is that authentic hero's journey?
And,
and you can go back.
So if you go look at like sort of the Joseph Campbell model,
which a lot of people know and that's sort of the becomes sort of the standard of the hero's journey is you have the hero,
you know,
setting out embarking on the journey,
accepting,
accepting the quest,
right?
Going through the trials and tribulations uh in the saving,
you know,
fighting the dragon,
killing the dragon,
saving the princess,
right and coming back home,
you know,
the the the conquering hero.
But um I don't think,
you know,
in modern times,
that model does not ring as true and,
and like you know,
you guys live it.
I mean,
living with like the,
the story of the unsung hero or the the fallen hero and,
and,
and picking up the pieces this to me,
uh sort of begs the question is like,
you know,
is it,
is it,
is the hero's journey authentic or is,
are you not getting,
are you not getting the full story?
Because everyone,
the thing is that with a story,
everyone wants,
you want an ending,
right?
You want and,
and we like happy endings.
So we want the here to be concrete.
It's why like in action adventure movies,
the good guys gotta win.
I mean,
like in your film noir,
like then it'll,
then the bad guy or the bad guy might win or like you kind of leave like,
yeah,
that was a film noir,
an art film and I'm,
I'm leaving because uh it,
it,
it doesn't end like,
you know,
just fade to black or whatever.
It's like because that's the,
that's the format of,
of that,
you know,
of that,
that genre of film.
But what is the purpose of the hero's journey?
Yeah.
What is it?
Well,
if you think about it,
the purpose of the hero's journey is not for us,
it's for the future,
it's for us to be able to look back.
It's not like if I'm on my own hero's journey,
that purpose is not for me,
it's not for you.
It's,
it's,
it's not it's not for Kurt.
You know,
it wasn't for Jimi Hendrix.
It was,
you know,
they lived their life,
but the heroes journey when we look back at their,
their lives,
we pull purpose from that.
The same as I pull purpose from my great uncle that won the FA cup in 1912.
Now there's a story that's so,
so this is a good,
this is a legend.
This is a good legend that uh right,
right.
There's a combination of myth and legend with this story.
Yeah.
Well,
I made him a myth in some case in,
in another book that I wrote.
But um the actual real story of him is,
is a legend because um he's sports related,
of course,
uh he won the FA Cup and for people that live in America and don't know what that is.
That's a football association that's kind of like winning the Stanley Cup in,
in uh soccer,
football uh in England.
And he won that in 1912 for a uh a very,
very small town uh called Barnsley.
Now Barnsley,
I don't know the exact population,
but it would kind of be like Royal Oak winning the Stanley Cup,
not Detroit,
just Royal Oak.
Ok.
So it's just a small,
small,
small town.
And um anyways,
he became almost like a,
a legend or a,
a myth,
mythological creature in my mind when I was a little kid.
Why?
Because my grandmother had his gold medal hanging around her neck when I was a little kid and she used to tell me the stories of,
of her,
bro.
That was her brother.
Right?
And what was his name?
His name was Jack Cooper.
His name?
Yeah,
his real name was actually uh John Holloway.
That's,
he was born,
uh,
with that name.
He changed his name to Jack when he was young.
Actually,
I think they just called him Jack but when he actually went and he moved to,
he had to move away from the family because they didn't have enough money to be able to support all four kids.
He went and lived with another family and they changed their name again and then when he actually went professional he took the name Cooper.
So I hear it,
but that's a myth.
I don't know if that's true or not.
Um,
I didn't know,
I don't know if it was actually done that and if you do the readings on Jack Cooper and there's a Wikipedia page in that,
which in my opinion needs to be filled out more.
Um,
but,
um,
but he,
he,
he's become a legend of that area now,
the,
er,
the reason why is because Barnsley hasn't won the FA Cup ever again.
I mean,
what are we in right now?
2023.
So,
you know,
it was 1912,
the last time that they won.
That's a long time ago.
Well,
that's really,
so that's,
I mean,
that's really interesting and,
and how mythology penetrates storytelling and in our,
in our personal lives because that's really become part of,
part of your legacy and part of your personal mythology.
Well,
I need to say something about that too because you made a point that struck me about how the hero's journey is more about the future too,
about how,
how it impacts the future.
And I'm a history buff.
I love history.
I think we learn from history and basically,
it's like creating history that's not been told.
In other words,
it's telling that story so that future can,
can learn from it.
I mean,
to me,
the purpose of history is to learn from and,
and I,
I love the Roman Empire.
I studied the Roman Empire.
One of the things that I'm attached to as far as the story is when the Roman generals would come home to Rome after conquering a land,
right?
In other words,
they'd be away,
they'd go and conquer Alexandria or whatever conquering uh area they did,
they'd come back and they had these Super Bowl type parades for them right through the streets of Rome.
In other words,
it was such a big deal that the,
the Roman general would be in their chariot.
They'd have their,
their family following behind with them all dressed in white and chariots behind them.
But it's written in history that as these generals are going through this Super Bowl type parade in downtown Rome that they had at somebody in their chair chirping in the general's ear saying all glory is fleeting,
all glory and is fleeting in other words.
So what,
what's next?
Right?
And that's kind of what you're describing with the hero's journey is it's to set up people to learn this journey,
to learn this story.
But how does it apply to the future?
How do we learn from it for the future?
Is that what you were exactly what I'm saying?
So then that begs the question,
why do we need heroes?
Why do we need that legend?
That's because clearly we do clearly,
we do because we are constantly creating legends,
creating myths.
We're resurrecting them.
Well,
why do we,
why do we need them?
And some of them are back to your question earlier.
They're not authentic,
they really are,
right?
Well,
we,
we see this,
yes.
And you see the ones,
this is what I believe.
The ones that are not authentic,
fall away.
Time,
uh Time makes them fall away because they the the truth like,
like Walt Whitman said,
the job of every poet is to speak the truth for their generation.
So the truth never changes.
But the words and the context change based on the era that you're in.
And so the the legends in my mind,
the legends,
in my humble opinion,
uh myth and legends fall away when they don't resonate the truth for that generation or their marketing money falls away or they run out of marketing money perhaps as well.
But I,
you know,
I'll go back to the question is like,
do we need,
why do we need heroes?
Why do we need myth and legend?
Because clearly we do otherwise we wouldn't,
we need,
we need them to learn from.
I mean,
if not,
we're,
we're reinventing the wheel over and over and over again.
And it's just like when we,
when we were doing the hero's journey,
um the series,
like with,
with all the different artists and I,
I told you there was a commonality or a common denominator across all of them and it didn't end good.
Those are things that we should be looking at and going.
OK.
Do we really wanna go down that path?
We already know the end.
So why are we doing it again?
It doesn't make any sense.
So it's really,
it's captured wisdom,
right?
That's what myth and legend is in,
in my opinion too,
it's uh somebody and something to aspire to,
right?
That's,
that's what it is.
For me,
a hero is somebody to aspire to whether it be a political hero,
uh entertainment hero,
a sports hero.
It causes me like as an example growing up,
I had my aspiring people,
my heroes,
so to speak uh in the names of Larry Bird and,
and,
and uh Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson and those were the so-called heroes because they were doing something that I aspired to do.
And so whether it be in a political rain or in a music rain or in the,
uh,
atmosphere of,
you know,
just being in a business,
right.
I might inspire to this aspire to this hero in this business because they're doing this,
it,
it,
it gives me somebody to,
I guess,
learn from,
uh,
also say,
boy,
if they did it,
boy,
I'd love to do that.
Right.
Look what they're doing.
Yeah,
you could look at it both ways.
I mean,
there's a lot of people that do have successful heroes journeys and lived a very long life and I'm not saying that living a long life means that you're successful.
I'm just saying,
you know what I mean?
You know,
so I mean,
you can look at it both ways but either way it's being able to choose and discern between different moments in history of like,
what path do I really want to take my life down?
Do I want it to go down this path and to go down in flames even though they were super successful for,
you know,
three minutes or do I want to take more of a longer slow approach where,
you know,
I can,
you know,
my life is a bit longer.
I'm having a more sustainable success.
I have family around me and people that I love and I'm not left with no money and,
and you know,
it so that,
so I gotta say something right now.
You can see it.
You,
that's another,
that's a different,
the music.
It's in the book I sent you.
No,
I forgot what I was gonna say.
No,
I did.
Um But seriously,
so one of the things that I,
I think I've aspired to and not to use that word too much in this one.
But uh one of the things I aspired to is the fact that we talk about success and typically a hero is attached to success.
But I think in my opinion,
again,
this is the Kurt David opinion that hero needs to be attached to significance,
right?
Because that's the difference.
I could be,
I could have success,
whether it be in music,
in sports,
whatever it might be.
But am I having significance?
Because to me that's a true hero and that's the one that's really authentic,
right?
Because they're having success.
And uh you know,
boy,
II,
I,
I'm a leading sport scorer in a sport.
OK,
great.
You're having success,
you're my hero.
But if I'm having significance,
let's say that significance as a professional athlete is boy.
Ok,
I'm the leading scorer in the league,
I get all these accolades,
but I'm also having an impact in my hometown because I'm doing this or I'm,
you know,
to me,
that significance is what elevates that real hero and makes him more authentic if that makes sense.
No,
this is great because what you and Steve are talking about the opposite side of the same coin.
So the hero can either be someone you aspire to be more like,
or the hero can be a cautionary tale on what not to do.
And so,
like,
I look at this and again,
now I,
I'm going back,
this goes back to,
to mythology because when you're dealing with myth and legend,
you're dealing in archetypes,
you know,
and,
and a,
an archetype is a,
is a model.
Yes,
it's in the book,
an archetype is,
it means a lot of things.
But basically,
it's a,
it's a model of a certain um behavior or type.
So it's,
it's a of a type.
Yeah,
it's a,
it's a model.
It's a model.
So the model,
the hero is a model but it's,
it's multi,
it's multifaceted.
So,
and what we do as human beings.
And this is,
this goes back to storytelling.
Why,
why stories resonate with us is because we see ourselves in them.
So you see where I'm going with this.
So the hero,
it's the mirror.
Yeah.
And so if you,
someone,
you aspire to be,
when you aspire to be like Michael Jordan or,
or Magic Johnson,
you saw yourself in that role in their success,
in their significance,
using your own words.
And so that person became a heroic figure for you.
And,
and conversely what Steve was saying,
Steve and I have multiple conversations about this.
You may have someone who is significant and is a heroic figure,
but they've got flaws and maybe things didn't end well for them and maybe there's things that we've done in our lives that we may not be so,
uh,
so happy about.
Um,
because nobody's perfect and you,
you see yourself in that as well,
you see the flaws and you say,
wow.
You know,
um,
and I think that there is an authenticity in both but,
um,
it's all the way you're sort of interacting with that.
Well,
it's a heroic figure.
Yeah.
And,
and I guess here's the question.
Can you have success without significance or can you have significance without success as a hero?
Uh So I will answer that question because I'm actually working on.
So,
is this another book that you're writing or what is like in the,
in the universe?
Silver Silver Jack is a,
is a heroic figure and he's a African American ballad who travels,
uh tells stories through,
through music.
A balladeer is someone,
uh who play is a musician but,
but he tells stories just hashtag look it up,
he tells stories through song,
but his character,
he is uh very nondescript.
He does heroic things,
but he doesn't talk about him.
Everyone tells his story.
And it's like,
Steve and I have talked about this too is like,
um,
you know,
there's the line that,
you know,
we're all the heroes of our own story,
but that's only half the line because the other part of the line is,
but you can't tell your own story.
It means a lot more when somebody else,
someone else has to tell it because otherwise it's just bragging,
right.
It's when someone else is that when you tell your story.
So enough about me talking about me,
why don't you talk about me for a while?
Then go ahead.
I am.
I think,
I,
I think this is all within the realm of what we're talking about is this is all why myths and legends continue on is because as,
as I read that,
you know,
that that passage in the beginning from,
from,
it's like this is how we find meeting,
this is how we find ourselves,
you know,
uh it's through myth and legend that we find purpose and we find truth.
Uh And we need some sort of guide,
we need some sort of North Star.
So uh these,
you know,
the figures of,
of myth and figures of legend become something either we aspire to or something we're like,
well,
you might want to avoid that,
right?
Learn from.
Yeah.
And so there's like our,
our biblical characters,
myth and legend.
Absolutely.
So one of the things too that,
that I just heard today as a matter of fact that there's only so so many frameworks of storytelling that are out there right now,
right?
We talk about the hero's journey,
that's a framework,
so to speak a platform,
right?
There's only so many of those out there throughout history,
right?
All the stories that have been told throughout history,
there's only so many platforms or frameworks that have been utilized.
Is that correct?
I mean,
would you guys agree with that?
And like I didn't do my homework on that.
But the interesting,
I think there's like seven.
Yeah,
so it's not a lot is a point,
right?
Despite all the different stories there,
there's so many story arcs that have um I,
I guess the platform is very limited of how many story arcs there are.
Yeah,
but the actually no,
the platform is scaled in infinitely.
So maybe that platform is not the word,
I mean,
it's models,
models or framework.
Yeah,
exactly.
But,
but to be able to,
you know,
take a platform,
it's great to grab a central character,
right?
For example,
in hero's journey,
it's gorgeous George and that becomes,
as I said before,
the glue that ties all of these secondary characters which were actually very,
you know,
successful celebrities that made,
you know,
millions of dollars.
But if it wasn't for that one character,
that central hero's journey of that one man,
those people don't exist,
that that's the key,
those are the things that interest me as far as the hero's journey.
It's not the hero's journey of,
I mean,
I I'm interested with the,
with those other heroes journeys,
but how did they get successful?
Who was behind them?
How did that really happen.
That's what really behind the scenes story,
which is I,
I love telling with from glory days as well.
We get that correct.
So let me ask you guys this,
who,
who is the human in your life today?
That is the the hero for you.
In other words,
who is the person or persons that is your hero today?
And you know,
we all can come up with cliche things like,
oh my wife and my kids and then I,
and I agree they're like heroes to us.
But like,
let me start by sharing mine then to me,
it's,
it's not just one person,
it's a type of person to me.
Heroes in today's society are the ones that have to overcome.
Like I like for me because of my gifted ability in the past that I had for physical abilities.
Every time I saw a child that had some type of physical disability,
II,
I almost was in tears because I was so grateful.
I thought,
wow,
they're,
they're my hero because look at what they're overcoming.
You know,
they were born with one leg or they,
you know,
they had this disability and they can't do the physical things that I was able to do to me.
They were,
they were my heroes growing up literally.
And so I'd see somebody like that.
So that,
that was my hero.
That was my foundation for that.
What about you guys?
What would be something that would be considered a hero for you.
You're my hero just by saying that you are a mythological hero,
by the way,
you're on the mailing list for all his books.
There will be a test and Steve no books for you.
No more books.
You ruined it.
Damn it.
You ruined it before.
So before I answer that there was a,
a point I wanted to make and I think I'm gonna lose it.
You already lost it.
I mean,
was it about the,
the journey?
Was it about the hero?
Was it about the myth versus legend?
No,
it was,
it was about like the the interplay between,
oh about the,
the learning from,
right?
We learned from the hero.
What maybe not to do or from?
This is what we do.
So this is,
this is tough because,
you know,
I spend,
I spend my days in myth and legend and like,
so,
you know,
it's kind of like,
II I realize um there are many,
many hero to me.
He,
my heroes are people like you said that have,
that have overcome and like,
as I,
as I say,
you know,
I tell my kids walk through life with humble confidence and,
and those are the heroes who have deep humility but deep confidence and conviction for what they do.
I mean,
you guys are,
you guys are heroic in a lot of ways.
Bill,
our producer.
Yeah.
Yeah,
he knows he,
you see,
he gave the look.
He knows.
But he,
he's not gonna say because he's humble,
right?
He's got that humble confidence too,
I think.
No.
But so,
so,
so for me,
it's,
there's many people that are,
that are heroes that in,
that inspire me and they inspire me.
A group of people,
they inspire me in different ways.
No,
it's,
it's,
I really like one of the things about being a storyteller.
You also have to be a story listener.
You know,
if you're a really good storyteller,
you're a really,
really good listener,
you have to be.
And I'm fascinated by every because we're all on our own hero's journey.
You know,
no one gets out of here alive and uh we all have our own pains and struggles and,
and to me,
like,
you know,
to hear other people's stories,
there's so many heroic aspects to their story.
So I don't have any one hero that I necessarily look up to or aspire.
But I mean,
I,
I try to see it in everyone.
I try to see the,
the um the heroic aspects and everyone.
And so this was the point that I wanted to make that you guys were,
were talking about um you know,
the who you aspire to and,
and,
and the,
you know,
he who your,
who your hero is and what Steve you hit on a point.
And I immediately thought Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
So now we're jumping back into Shakespeare,
the movie.
So there was a movie called Rosencrantz and Guildenstern and it was Hamlet from the messengers who,
who got killed on the ship.
It was from their perspective.
And so this is something that we do in like my point is whoever the hero is,
is really dependent on who's telling the story and the perception and the,
and the perspective because you talk to someone like an athlete who's a heroic figure and they'll tell you they were,
they're not gonna say it's probably another athlete,
a famous athlete.
It's probably,
they'll say it was my eighth grade teacher or it was my mom or it was my dad or it was some,
some just normal person.
And,
and so what strikes me is like,
that's something like,
especially in entertainment that they play with now in storytelling.
Uh It's,
it's the,
the context and the point of view of who,
you know,
who's the hero who's telling,
who's telling the story.
Gorgeous George,
right?
That's a,
that's a,
yeah,
that's a great example of that.
Yeah,
because,
because if you were just looking at it from a historical perspective,
Gorgeous George was a blip.
But you go from his perspective.
Yeah,
from that lens,
from that storytelling lens,
it is mythic and legendary because he launched the careers of Jimi Hendrix,
Little Richard Otis Redding or Aretha Franklin and nobody knew people that go against what is wrong and they're afraid and they still do it.
Are heroes.
It doesn't matter what you're at,
doesn't matter whether it's sports or politics or,
or whatever it may be.
It's overcoming that fear like we are all doing just to do this podcast.
I mean,
you also said you didn't want to do this podcast.
I still don't.
And,
and,
and the more we do it,
the less,
the less I like it.
No,
I'm just kidding.
I love it.
But,
but it's heroic just in the sake of doing it.
I mean,
it,
it,
it seems very small on the scale of what,
what the hero is.
But any time that you start to speak and you become and you put yourself out there,
ok,
there's a fear to that and a lot of people can't get,
they can't get over that.
But what do they say?
The biggest,
one of the biggest fears is public speaking.
So why?
Because you,
you know,
people will shame you or cancel you these days to rotten tomatoes.
It's,
it's,
it's all the same thing,
right?
So,
to me,
I'd rather be in a fist fight than speaking in front of a lot of people.
I mean,
you,
you feel comfortable doing that.
But I mean,
to me,
I,
I,
I'm the other way around.
I like the close contact.
So I'm,
I'm more comfortable with that.
I,
I love playing ice hockey.
But,
um,
but that doesn't make me a hero because I like doing that.
I mean,
speaking up really is.
That's the number one heroic thing that we can do,
especially during times where things are going down the wrong path and we all have a responsibility to do that in my opinion.
And,
um,
and that's what I,
those are the kinds of people that I'm looking for,
like Martin Luther King who's a hero.
I mean,
he's a prime example and this is a good way.
I mean,
we got,
we've got to wrap up but this is,
this is a good,
good way to wrap up because what we're saying is it's not necessarily about um heroes as people.
It's,
it's heroic acts and actions and the way and you know,
and way the way in which you view the world and the risk that you're willing to take,
I'll just close with this because this is something worth looking up.
So uh Philip Zimbardo did the Stanford experiment and he did the nine the nine things that will trigger evil in,
in modern society.
So the Stanford experiment,
if you don't know,
basically,
I think it was like 1971 at Stanford.
He set up a prison experiment where he made uh students,
half the students prisoners,
half the students guards and he had to shut the experiment down after a day or two because the guards were just like beating on the,
beating him and they were students,
they were fellow students.
But it was,
the whole thing is very fascinating.
But from it,
he wrote a book about,
about how evil manifests and the way you stop evil from manifesting is really heroic at attributes which include,
um,
saying something is wrong.
When everyone else is saying it's not wrong,
it's standing up when everyone else is sitting down,
it's all,
you know,
all the things that we know are heroic deeds.
It's,
you know,
those types of things that will prevent,
you know,
evil in the world.
So,
uh I'll end this with.
We need myth,
we need legend and we need more heroes doing heroic things.
So,
amen.
Amen.
All right.
Thanks guys.
Thank you.
Great conversation.
Great stuff.