Folktellers : Stories to be Shared

What Makes a Tale Tick: The Psychology Behind Compelling Stories

During this episode Josef, Stephen, Kurt and special guest Kevin Stein discuss, how stories affect us as humans? What is neuro-coupling? How does psychology affect the ways we interact with stories? How does our imagination impact the way we see stories?
Kevin Stein is a cultural anthropologist, professor, and expert on matters of the mind as they relate to the world we live in. Kevin is Principal/Co-founder, Signal Path Immersive, an experiential entertainment production company based in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Stockholm. Kevin is also a former executive of King World Production, CBS, Viacom, HBO, NBCUniversal, and the co-founder of the Jimi Hendrix Foundation.
He brings to his work a history of successful business development and content production in advent technology, digital media, and traditional entertainment with specialization in web3, augmented reality, social analytics, and neuromarketing as well as documentary film.
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All right.Time for our latest episode of Folk Tellers podcast stories.We shared,I am Joseph Bastian and here are here with,I'm told that I shouldn't use fancy words.Uh I've gotten some feedback.So I'm just gonna say here with Kurt David,wait,wait a minute feedback from the audience.And I was like,jeez,I was gonna say,yeah,if it's audience feedback,then we have to listen to that.Right?Yeah.So,but I love the fancy words.Do you and who are you?And I don't know,II I have no facial recognition.I only know you by your adjectives.Who are you?Uh Stephen Sadler.So Kurt and Steve and Joseph were here.So you're here.Yes.This episode we're talking about the psychology of storytelling.So to tee this up and we've got uh I call him a social anthropologist named Kevin.Stein.Kevin is many things uh done a lot of work in the entertainment industry.He's a professor and,and uh we're gonna talk to him in a little bit about the psychology and maybe the,the culture of storytelling,uh who knows where it's gonna go.So,he studies ants and uncles.Yes.Those kinds of ants.What if your aunt was an aunt?What if your aunt was an uncle,you know,she would not be your uncle who's on first?All right.So,uh this is I'll,I'll tee this up.Uh How storytelling affects the brain.So,we're talking about the psychology of storytelling and uh we're gonna go down this rabbit hole then throw a couple of things out.I know Kurt,this is your favorite neuro coupling.So,neuro coupling in storytelling in your brain,uh It's when a story synchronizes the listener's brain with the teller's brain.And this is the concept that when you're telling a story that the storyteller's brain will actually synchronize with the audience uh and creates a third brain,which is kind of fascinating.Then there's uh mirroring.Mirroring is when uh the neurons in your brain enable listeners to mirror the experiences that the storyteller is sharing.Uh There's also two areas in the brain that are activated when processing facts,stories activate many additional areas such as the motor cortex,sensory cortex and frontal cortex.So what they're saying is stories uh activate multiple parts of the brain uh by the by their very nature.And they also release dopamine in response to emotionally charged events and then they don't put people to sleep.Anyway,there's a lot of stuff going on in your brain when you tell a story.And when you hear a story our brains love these stories.So what does all this mean?What some people are falling asleep?Yeah.To me,this is exciting because modern technology,especially in the medical world has allowed us to find these connections,right?These neuro coupling connections,all the things that happen,the mirroring uh they they show scientifically now that this is happening.In other words,it's not just opinion that this happens,but it is actual scientific proof that,hey,when I'm telling a story and the audience member connects with that through that neuro coupling or through mirroring,they can show that in imagery now,which is amazing.And,and so for me,it's like,OK,you should kind of tune into this because there's a lot of things happening.Um I know that stories are powerful because of,you know,you see them in action,whether you're listening or whether you're telling stories.But for like for you,Steve,what is it?So what does it matter?Like,what does it matter if your brain is doing all these things when you're telling or listening to the story?Why is that?Why is that important or even interesting?Well,I,I think I mentioned this before in one of the other podcasts.When I got sick back in 2015,I was actually still able to vision and image things and create stories even when my brain was disconnecting from my body.That's a very strange thing.So it it literally,I mean,just because you're conscious of something doesn't mean that your brain is not operating in the background because it,because it does,I don't think everyone knows what happened to you.So,why don't you,why don't you go a little deeper on that?Well,it's interesting because,uh,the,one of the charts that you gave us here at,uh,actually listed cortisol as one of the aspects that your brain produces and it actually doesn't produce pro uh cortisol.It actually produces something called,um AC C,which is uh corto hormone.And yeah,it sounds complicated.But what that does is it tells your adrenal glands to produce cortisol and that's what keeps you calm under stress when you have any type of severe trauma,like a concussion or whatever,your pituitary gland,which sends the signal to your adrenal gland stops working,that's called secondary Addison's disease.And that's what I have.So I have to take uh a certain amount of cortisol every three hours for the rest of my life.When I was going through that,I was actually in the process of,of writing novels.And it was so interesting because I,and I think I mentioned it once before I was able to write stories even though I was kind of just out of it.I mean,and this is before I got diagnosed and,and,and,and they gave me the actual medication which kind of brought the physical,my physical body,my brain back to one because that's kind of what happens.It's like your brain and your body just separates,right?And everything,your brain totally works on stories.I mean,that's how it figures things out.That's,you know,it's,it's that process of,of,of everything that you've seen.And that's,I think that's why we dream the way that we do because it's the processing and the creating of stories.But um but I can,I can tell you that,that the brain is just an amazing thing,but it's very scary once it gets separated from the body.Yeah,I remember you telling me that during that time when you,we're working on,uh I think you're working on mindset and you,there are parts of it.You don't even remember writing.There's,if I go back and read the book now,it's like I didn't write it.That's what it feels like sometimes.And,and it's really because I don't remember even though,you know,I,I wrote a lot of it on the plane going back and forth actually to Los Angeles to meet Kevin Stein,who we're going to talk to today,which is kind of interesting.But um but yeah,it's uh uh yeah,the mindset story is,is literally all about a lot of the things that we're talking about today,like a device that actually connects to your head and enables you to be able to convert your thoughts into text for your phone.And,uh,it's how that technology goes,you know,off the rails in a bad way.That's,yeah,that's spooky.But,um,but,yeah,I mean,it's everything is the,the psychology,the psyche of the brain.Right?I mean,without,without us being able to control our brain,you know,storytelling doesn't really matter.I mean,it's,you know,that's why mental health is so important these days.So that's a really important point because as we're talking about the psychology of storytelling and what happens to the brain when you're hearing a story or telling a story,it's important to know this stuff.One,I think as a storyteller because if you know that there's certain certain storytelling devices that will trigger certain responses from your audience and in the brain,that's a pretty powerful thing.Yeah,you can control audiences that way and they do.Well,that's interesting because to me,it,it's,you know,I think about marketing,I think about um media,like,you know,different types of media and how,like you said,Steven,how it could be controlled people,you can control people.But more importantly,you can influence people,especially if I'm a marketer and want somebody to buy something.I want to tell a story,there's a certain story about that and if I'm engaging with that audience member and this is what's interesting and how Kevin's gonna come on and talk more about this in detail,right?As far as how this works.So,but I do have a question.You said you were disconnected from your body,right?I mean,how long did that last?And what did that feel like?I mean,were you aware of this happening?So I could be in the shower,for example.And then all of a sudden my brain is floating off into la la land.I'm still in the shower,but I am actually seeing visions and people and places that I don't know,I never been.And then I,because I,you know,when you have a curious personality,which I do,I would tend to try and focus on that image or that story that I'm seeing and then because I really want to see what it is,right?It's like I'm being sucked out through this hole into what I'm seeing,right?But not through my eyes,through my brain.And then as soon as I do that,it literally feels like I'm gonna throw up.It was like,right?And there was a chemical reaction or lack,there wasn't a drug induced.No,no,no,no,there's no drugs.No,I mean,and,and it,and it turned out that it was because my body uh the chemicals,the cortisol,there was no cortisol in my body at all.When I went and got tested a matter of fact,the first time I was that I,I said I had this problem.They thought,oh,there's something wrong with your eyes and then the optometrist goes,no,there's nothing wrong with your eyes.Your eyes are changing all the time though.So,I'm sending you to a neurologist which send me to an endocrinologist and there he's the one that died.Yeah.And he's the main,um,his name is doctor ha ha.We'll give him a plug but he handles all the concussions for the red wings and the lions.And I'm telling you if it wasn't for him,I wouldn't be sitting here today.Well,it just goes to show how powerful the brain is when it comes to stories and imagery,right?I mean,that's what you said that imagery was very powerful for you at that time,even though you were detached.Yeah.And they,and,and they thought,thought at first that I was having seizures but because I was throwing up,but it,I wasn't having seizures.I had all those tests and they said no,you're not having seizures.But,um,but,but it's,uh,the brain is such a complex thing and,and,and how it ties to the body,you know,is,is,is still a mystery in many ways.Do you feel like you're reconnected again?Yeah,I mean,ii,I was probably like that,you know,for,for a very long time and I think it just snuck up on me the more I played,you know,hockey a couple of times a week,you know,I had a couple of motorcycle accidents and stuff like that when I was younger.It's just,I,I think concussions are not a single event.I think they are accumulative.So the more you'd shake yourself around as you get into your,you know,late forties,early fifties and that,as I was at the time,I think that that's when your,your,your pituitary Gland says I'm tired,I'm not gonna work anymore.You're not growing anymore and you literally start to,you start to uh die away.I mean,that's what happens but,but it can be stopped.I mean,if anything come out of the podcast today,if you get the right doctor,you can be reconnected.And that's,that's a,that's a pretty impressive thing that,that medicine can't do these days.So the psychology of storytelling,we've got Kevin Stein here.I'm gonna let uh Steve do,do the formal intro.But in my mind,Kevin is,I,I consider him a social and cultural anthropologist uh across the a across the spectrum of many different different topics.And Kevin,we're so happy to have you here today.So thanks for being on,hey,Kevin,how are you?Of course,dear comrades.Yes,comrades.We are comrades in arms onward,Earthlings.So we are so,so Kevin and Kevin and I have been friends for Jeez Kevin.How long I think the Earth had just cooled.We,uh,we drove around in his Prius in Los Angeles for,I don't know,it seems like months when I first met you.Um,yeah,I didn't get that seasick going up and down those hills of Laurel Canyon.But,uh,but anyways,um,obviously we wanted to,to get you on our podcast.You are a wealth of knowledge in so many different areas.I mean,uh,you're involved with the,you know,the Zappa and Jimi Hendrix Foundation and um you know,Viacom and Rolling Stone magazine,there's so many areas that you've touched on,but when it boils right down to it,I mean,you truly are a professor and I think that's what you're,you're currently working at uh Carnegie Carnegie Mellon,right.Is that correct?Right.Uh Teaching a course on A I and also I've been a capstone advisor at the of Entertainment Industry Management program,which is uh out of Heinz College,the Arts and Humanities College at uh Carnegie Mellon.But Steve,when you were referring to rock and roll,it made me sound not like uh Joseph described me uh cultural or social anthropologist,but more like a sociopath probably can't be both.Well,you're a hybrid,I think,I think in Hollywood it's a necessity.So,um so Kurt,I know that you,uh you obviously want to dive into the psychology side of it.Um I think your background is in psychology.I have a master's in counseling.And so I've,I've done more counseling on myself than anybody else I believe throughout my,thank you.A lot of mirrors in your house.Yeah.But yeah,Kevin,it,it's amazing to look at your journey in the background and I saw the English in there as well.I was gonna bring that up.You got a little English in there as well as part of that degree.Correct.I do speak English as uh one of my first languages.But yeah,it's interesting just the degrees,right?The anthropology,the English and how you get into this media side of things.But having that,that,that kind of a background and it,it enamors me to think about storytelling in that connection,right?Because that's what you draw together,you draw that together and,and simplify it for people.Correct?Well,I think as somebody who's been in the field of psychology,I mean,the,the story is that the foundation it would seem of not only the,the personal but the universal,right.So,um,yeah,I think we're,what did the anthropologists say?We're storytelling animals and that's what sets us apart from other animals who communicate.Yeah.But one of the things I,I question I have because how I,I look at how you were ahead of your time.Like I look at one of your presentations back from 10 years ago,2013,you did two presentations.One on the future of music and the other on the future of television,on TV.And you had something called the anti model where you talked about audience behavior versus business policy and you're,you're talking about it in the music industry at that time as well with that presentation,but also it can apply to TV,media as well.How,how did you know,I mean,it,the 10 years prior to all this,I mean,you saw it coming.Well,I,as you said,it's,it's been a personal journey.I think I learned had to listen early on.Um I guess one of the presidents once said nobody ever got fired from being,for being a good listener.And I took that to heart.I can't remember which president.But it was funny because Kurt,when you mentioned journey,I thought,well,in California,you know,people talk of going to Whole Foods as a personal journey.And a friend of mine once said a journey is the Donner Party.OK.Yeah,that's a real journey.But um I guess the storytelling animal is something that is now brought into high relief uh with uh generative A I being so much at the fore before you guys called.I was reading the details of the now uh recent settlement uh of the WG A strike and I quote under the new contract,A I cannot be used to write or rewrite scripts nor can A I generated content be recognized as source material and it goes on.Um,you know,and I think this is sort of in the face of our unique abilities that I think technology is redefining,uh what it is to be human and certainly what it is to be storytellers.So,since we last spoke Kurt,I,I listened to a new novel that was 95% computer generated.Uh It's called Death of an author,uh published by Pushkin.It's by a very interesting writer named Steve Marsh who has a lot to say,and he basically was hired,I,you know,more as a producer to collaborate um rather than the writer.Um And,and,and uh keyed into the,the,the writers strike.He said he had a conundrum with the publishers because they didn't know who to give the copywriter credit to.And finally,he said,I asked chat GP t what the author should be called and it came up with a marine which is a combination of our names,uh machine and Steve Marsh.So um we live in interesting times where uh on a,a competitive podcast,I heard one experts say that um in the face of all this hype about,you know,the machines are going to replace us that um we need new gods and life is boring without fear.So I thought that was pretty interesting.So before you came on,we were talking about neural coupling,mirroring as far as the uh the aspects that that happen in the brain.How does that continue with the,with the introduction of machines and machine learning and,and this artificial intelligence,how does that continue to connect to us,in your opinion?Well,you know,I didn't answer your question,which was,uh,how did I know anything?I mean,I,I,you know about the future back then and I think I,I said halfheartedly listening but,um,I also think that,uh,you know,having one step in the future,being interested in science fiction ties into what machines are really good at,at right now and accelerating at,um,certainly anything we say about A I uh generative A I in this conversation will be outmoded in two months or,or two weeks or two days or two hours at this point.But prediction is accelerating and I think the ability to predict is something that we're looking at now with respect to um,forecasting.Certainly,I heard a,I now has passed the singularity of weather prediction,um,human versus machine.So,um,again,I think,um,that the,what's being brought into high relief is,is what defines us as humans and going way back to the quote you had from an anthropologist about the cro manion,which is now outmoded it,um,we call them early humans actually or Neanderthal.Um,at the time,it was believed that they were a distinct branch.But nevertheless,I mean,when you talk about creativity and storytelling and um the like uh we're,we're talking about something that's,that's fundamental in the human experience,right?Uh The human psyche if you will.And I think that the difference is when we start talking about consciousness,which we still have yet to define this whole idea that um uh machines can be sentient.There's an interesting uh reference in the book I ref uh I,I referred to death of an author where uh there's a,ari the writer in question has written a book called God Ink and about a um an,an,an A I uh sp uh artificial specific intelligence uh that becomes sentient and quite conflicted about it.And whenever it achieves sentience,it turns itself off and the programmers have to then address what they call a bug.And I it really struck me as interesting that um in,in sort of a flip that the machine recognizes that in sentience and maybe even in the experience of human suffering and the senses that drive storytelling many times that there in lies uh trouble,you know,the world of Maya,the Buddhists would say and is,is one where we suffer.So,um have you,have you heard of New Nori?No.So you can look it up on youtube and anyone's listening today can also look it up.I'm not saying this is a good thing by any stretch of the imagination,but because you're obviously touching on A I and we,we've done a previous podcast on A I which is,was kind of interesting,but no,no,is actually an,an artist developed this A I character that Warner music is now seeing is a real musician that can make her own music and play just like,you know,Ty Taylor Swift or,or any others and they're pushing her with money behind it just like they were in their music just like they would any other real live human being.Um It's just,it's just a fascinating world that we live in right now with um was with a,with a I now if you listen to the music,it's garbage.I mean,in my opinion,but that's just my opinion,you know,there's a lot of other music that people say is garbage as well.But um but just like the book that you're reading that's,you know,where,where is this going in the future?What do you think about that?Yeah.What are the implications of all that?Well,I think it's all about exploration at this point and,and um I think Steve,you have a unique appreciation based on your background um of the algorithm,right?And I think you,you said that this particular music is garbage,well,garbage in,garbage out,right?So,so people I think sometimes fail to articulate that,you know,this is generative preprogrammed transformation Transformers,right?So uh the human is a necessary evil right now in terms of predicting where it's going.I don't know.I mean,I think people jump on the bandwagon.Right.I think the hysteria of the WG A is really uh misbegotten and it,and it,in my opinion,when I asked early on some of my friends in the unions,you know why A I wasn't really at the forefront as opposed to compensation.Uh You know,I,I felt that there was a lack of leadership because as I tell my students,A I will not replace you professionals who use A I will.And I think the same thing holds for writers in,in any business really.Um Though,uh I,the,the author Steve Marsh remarked on the fact that uh in his experience guiding the A I to write the book um that it was very good at doing complex things and not very good at,at doing simple things.So I don't know if you've played around with,you know,sort of uh prompts that direct uh these,these um bots to imitate certain styles.Um but often they're better at imitating something complex like in the book,an obituary in the Toronto star perfectly articulated,right?As opposed to writing in the style of Raymond Chandler.Well,there's nuance to Chandler,you know,about the blo blonde bombshell that just doesn't exist right now in the experience um that A I can draw upon as far as machine learning goes.Um So it's still really the humans who are um are,are driving the machine right now.I mean,to the extent that I think,you know,there's a difference between um what a machine can produce as opposed to what comes out of originality through the,through human emotions.Well,Kevin,that brings up a great point that I've been thinking about as you're describing.This is,you know,today's episode is about uh psychology with storytelling and when you talk about machine learning and,and,and spewing out content,whether it be uh you know,a book,uh some type of audio or whatever it might be.Do you think that the psychology is still involved with that or is that where it separates from humans to the A I aspect of storytelling?In your opinion?That's uh one of the questions that,that Great Sage Yoda would uh would observe as some of the questions are bigger than the answers.I mean,I always go back to what are the words mean?So psychology obviously has to deal with the,the soul,right?So going back to uh trace Tracy Kidder's book,I think in the seventies,she was talking about the soul of the machine and automation in the workplace back then,um you know,I think I go back to what is,what,what,what is involved in,in the psychology of creativity.Well,if it's imagination,then it certainly goes back to um you know,the faculty of the mind that manipulates and forms images,right?So we're sort of getting away with talking about A I out here because,um you know,we're Hollywood Renegades and we're talking about uh A I and creativity in the course that I'm teaching.But I,I think that when you go back to the words,I mean,I think you guys have probably done the research but even story is interesting.I mean,you know,coming from,uh it,it,it directly comes from,you know,Greek and um the Greek roots having to do with really experience.I mean,I think it literally has to do with,you know,um expert witness or coming out of research.So,uh while there are similarities,I,I see that machines are really reproducing something that we just don't have our finger on,which is what is the soul,what is consciousness?These are questions that have been,you know,examined one way or another by priests,whether they're,they're priests of science or priests of the,you know,the high religion in during time,right?You know,uh talk,talking about experiences.Um Obviously you were very good friends with Frank Zappa that is um he was known for,obviously for pushing the limits of the human psyche and testing the social norms.Um How do you think?I mean,first of all,how did Hanging with Frank more at your reality?I'd love to know that because I,I don't think I've ever asked you that question.And what do you think he would think of the way things are today with a,I,well,I think of Frank every day because he would have had a field day with what's been going on in this country,uh,for the last,I mean,and,and I'm sure you guys have referenced some of the,you know,you talked about those two pieces that I wrote occurred a long time ago.I mean,Frank was definitely a futurist too.He,he certainly predicted what was happening in this country and I'm not gonna get political because that isn't the nature of the show.Um I miss Frank's uh sharp intellect and his ability to speak truth to power.Um How did it influence me?Um Well,I met him when I was 15 and it was unusual because he was very,very accessible.And uh I met him at a time when he was playing in New York every weekend.They were,they had to open rehearsals at a place called the Garrick Theater in Greenwich Village.And it was um a really free form uh presentation.It was around the time that they released absolutely free.The second record.Um How did he influence me?I think,um I,I used to watch the Iran contra hearings with him uh after I finished work,uh because he would get up when I,when I left the office when I was working at CBS and,you know,his running commentary,you can only imagine,I mean,he had a deep appreciation for,uh,the irony of,uh how politicians,uh presented a world view,uh,versus what,uh we all lived in,in terms of a parallel reality.Uh,that didn't have to deal with power.I mean,I saw the way he handles himself under uh,very,very difficult situations.Um You know,not only um uh when he was attacked by the Bush administration,um personally,uh because he was offered the position of ministry and culture by Vaclav Havel when Czechoslovakia went uh communist free.But I also remember talking with him at the end of his life and we were talking about the end of the world,which sort of gets into this robot apocalypse,right?And I said,Frank,um WW what do you think when,how is the world going to end?And he,I said,is it going to be environmental disaster?And he was smoking a cigarette as usual and puffed and said no.And I said uh is it gonna be uh nuclear apocalypse?No.Well,Frank,how is the world going to end?And he just said,nostalgia.Wow.And uh well,you know,um when I think about A I and creativity and psychology,I think of originality versus um derivative art.And so we live in a world of sequel after sequel.So um,you know,maybe the machines can do better,who knows?Well,Kevin,that's a,that's a kind of a good way to round out our discussion with you.So,and uh last question,you know,how does,how does the future go on or how does the world end for you in terms of storytelling?Well,the world,you know,will end either as tragedy or comedy.I hope comedy because one of the differences between machines and humans seems to be the nature of how well machines can produce comedy,right?So I think comedy according to people,experts like Freud,whose work on humor is very underestimated.You know,the whole notion of the Freudian slip literally comes from the fact that um there's a the accidental nature of humor,right?We slip slip of the tongue slip on a banana,peel whatever.And I've been really interested in tracking how um computer generated humor is sort of one of the ways I see the psychology of creativity coming into the fore.Um I think that it's,it's interesting to consider how people are,are jumping on the bandwagon,bandwagon.As I said before,there are hundreds of books now that are on Amazon that are generated.I know Clark World,for example,is inundated with a I generated work.I mean,I'm interested in seeing how things settle down.And um I,we always,I think embrace new technology with its promise and always know its larger impact in retrospect.You know,last time we spoke,we talked a lot about uh oral versus written storytelling.And so last time I read something and I,I know you guys do occasionally.So I was wondering if I could end on a,a note that um is articulated uh by the poet where,you know,Kurt,I see the seat of the soul in poetry and song.Um And I think there's a continuum there that this particular poem speaks to.It's about a rock art site in uh in California near in the Big Sur area.And it's a poem by a California poet named Robertson Jeffers called Hands inside a cave in a narrow canyon near Tass Sahara.The vault of rock is painted with hands,a multitude of hands in the twilight,a cloud of men's palms no more,no other picture.There's no one to say whether the brown shy,quiet people who are dead intended religion or magic or made their tracings in the idleness of art.But over the division of years,these careful signs manual are now like a sealed message saying,look,we also are human,we had hands,not paws.All hail you.People with the cleverer hands are supp planters in the beautiful country.Enjoy her a season,her beauty and come down and be supplanted for you are also human.A beautiful way to end.Kevin Kevin Stein.Thank you so much from uh cave drawings.To A I and everything in between.We really appreciate your,your time and your friendship.Kevin.Thank you guys.See what a,what a pleasure onward.Earth.Take care,talk to you soon.Bye bye.All right again.A,a,another,a deep dive with the deep guy.And Steve.You had,you had said this in an earlier podcast when we,it was the,I think it was the IA I podcast and I,I think I asked you,you know,what was the difference?So,what's the difference between,you know,human and this goes back to psychology,what's,what's the difference between the human brain and a,and a computer?And you said,well,a I is soulless,correct?And,and,and that's,I mean,really,that's what Kevin's,he just,he just,he just said it in a little better way,but much better than me.I'm kidding.But I had,so I had a question for you because before we brought Kevin on,we were talking about,you know,we're always talking about the power of storytelling.And if you understand the psychology,because in my mind,what's,what differentiates,whether we're not gonna keep talking about A I and computers or whatever.But the,I think the difference in,in sort of the mechanical and the organic psychology of storytelling is that the human brain is,is a blend of both,like there's certain mechanics,this,the way the brain works,our mechanics and those are things that you can,you can document.But then there's what Steve's talking about is this soul piece,this inspirational piece,this creative piece that is kind of an X factor.Uh And we are a marrying of the two things.We have the mechanical and the organic.But I think about you of,of all of us,you,you for your business,you're out there public speaking,talking about change and,and you know,working through change and talking to leaders about this and audiences.And there's a certain um improvisational aspect of the story telling,like,you know,what story you're gonna tell and you have a presentation but you never know who your audience is gonna be.And I'm kind of fascinated about what's the play between the two because you've got the mechanics already,right?Like you're not coming in cold.So it's not purely improvisational,but you've never met these people before.You don't know if they're gonna like,you know,throw tomatoes or,or,you know,carry you on their shoulders at the end.So it's like,how do you,how do you manage that?How do you,how do you Yeah.No,it's,it's a great question and,and I love that because this is the part of what I do present and speak um is,is really,it's inspiring to me because this is why I do it to help impact people.But one of the things that I pick up on as I'm speaking,as I watch the audience,right?I have my stories,I have my uh pace,you know,there's all sorts of things you can do to um create that story and,and it's not just the words himself,but it's the pace of the story.It's,it's,you know,we use video a lot in my presentation.So you have video,we have the multimedia,um use imagination,right?You wanna touch people's imagination.So I'm not just telling them something that it allows them to think about it.Right?As I heard somebody say,we have more information available than ever before in history,but less thinking and helping people think is one of the best things you can do.And so one of my goals when going into a presentation is how can I help somebody think?But one of the things I pick up on when speaking with people is,you know,we talk about the non verbal,right?When we talk about communication,but it's very real,right?There's things nonverbally and,and when you talk that talk about machine learning,how does machine learn how to pick up on a non verbal with somebody,you know,unless they have something that they can visually pick up on?Ok.A hand is raised.Ok.Well,that's literal.But how do you pick up on somebody's sitting differently or posturing differently or they're looking different places,right?Those are things that a machine cannot as of right now.Pick up on,that's where the human comes in,right?I can pick up on those things as I'm telling a story and say boy,I better pick up my pace.I better slow down the pace.I better change my story,right?Because I wanna still engage with this person.I want to see that neural coupling happening,right?This is an interesting word that um Kevin used that he said Frank's opposite at the end.And that's the uh you know,the end of the world was gonna be nostalgia.Yeah,that was interesting.But when you unpack that it makes a lot of sense because if we nostalgia obviously is things that have happened in the past,usually positive things that we remember from the past,right?That's good,nostalgia.If we hang on to those things,we don't move forward,we don't do change like a champion.So he's kind of saying what you do,but he was saying it in a different way.It's like if we hang on to the past,that will be the death of us.And I,and I agree with him.The problem is change can also be the death of us if we choose the wrong path to go down.Right?I mean,so it,it's,it's such a subtle ble,it's more subtle.It's,it's,it's,it,it's,it's an interesting blend that you have to really have that I think we talked about before the discernment to know which way to pivot,is it left or is it right?You know,and when in basketball you go to open space in soccer,you go open space,right.You go to where there's room for you to be able to,you know,live and succeed and achieve.Well,there's something I was,I,I didn't know if I was gonna bring it up or not,but I was thinking about it on my drive in today was that uh when I was playing basketball back in my days,back playing basketball,I used something called cybernetics and basically,it's visualization of actions,right?We call the basketball cyber cybernetics,but it could be any applied to anything and having that visualization of an action,having that visualization of success of that um was very important.And so to your point earlier,when you brought up about your story,Steve and being disconnected from your body,but it was the imagery and it was the uh story imagery that really connected to you,right?That,that really helped you continue to spew that content.Um To me,that's a major part of our imagination.It's a major part of storytelling.It's a major part of the psychology,right?And,and connecting that soul and connecting that imagination with that aspect of that vision.Your your imagination is the key part of storytelling.I mean,without our imagination,we don't tell stories as a matter of fact,without imagination,we don't get out of bed because I have to imagine I'm gonna go downstairs and make and make a nice omelet.Right.I got to imagine that before,before I do it.So I,I'm picturing what I want to do before I do it.So we're,we're storytelling to ourselves all the time,but we don't know it,but we do.And I'd like to imagine that this podcast is gonna benefit somebody somewhere.Oh,you're just imagining things.But you guys got me thinking.So there's a show I'm addicted to on youtube.It's called the Behavior Panel.And it's four guys that are uh a couple of them are uh formal special force,military uh interrogation,uh uh counter interrogation experts and a couple of them and they all work in corporate America,but they basically are uh experts in uh human behavior and uh human uh you know,human interaction.And so what they'll do is someone will say,hey,there's this uh murder case or a court case or something.Can you kind of break down?Like,is this person,are they telling the truth or like,you know what's going on?And they'll do like,very popular,like they did the Johnny Depp of Amanda Hurd and like,whatever,you know,whatever is popular and they basically show you the video and then they break it down,they break down the whole person's body language and really what it is,it's all pattern recognition and they're like,OK,you know,if they're doing this and this time this is what this demonstrates and what they always say is we establish a baseline.So to me,this is sort of like the mechanics of psychology,right?So we're always doing,we have as human beings,there's certain actions we do depending on our level of stress,our level of comfort,all the factors that make us human and what they do is they establish a baseline that says,OK,um in this type of situation,if they're doing that and they're doing it again and again,then we know it's probably like this and it's not an exact science,but it's so totally,totally fascinating to me.Like it,it's,is that it's that psychology of storytelling,but they're like breaking it down into human behavior,which I tell a story or is it honest?Right.You know?Right.Right.Because they're all,yeah,that everyone is,they're telling a story and it's like,OK,is this an authentic story or are you trying to,you know,what story are you telling?And for what reason?And is it authentic are you,you know,so I could bring this up right now too,Joe Joseph,is that uh when I was taking my master's degree in counseling,that there was a professor that talked about eye movement and literally,he couldn't predict whether somebody was thinking about something from the past,whether he was creating it based on the eye movement while telling that story,he could predict it and he'd call it out,he'd say,ok,this person before they even recognized it that OK,this person is bringing up something from the past or this person is making up something from a vision,uh some type of imagery that they have.And so it was very interesting just from the eye movement.That's what those guys do.They're like,if you,I guess if you look up to the right,you're accessing uh previous memory.If you do.So they know,you know,they have all this and they just point it all out and it's like these people don't even,you know,you have no control over it because it's the mechanics of the way the body and the brain real time.Yeah,for sure.So,what do we have control over today?I don't know.Hopefully a good as a storyteller.It's important to know that there are some mechanics,there's mechanics in the way you craft a story,there's mechanics in the way you communicate that story.And if you have a basic knowledge of those,you can make your story that much,that much better.I think the flip side is,is,you know,it's,it's,it's always about balance.You don't want it too organic or too mechanical and it's,it's,it's,and it's situational.That's kind of where I walk away with this.No,I agree.I mean,um stories,they,a lot of stories follow a pattern,right?Our brain loves,I think you said a pattern recognition.I mean,that's probably why we're able to remember numbers and you know,that type of thing and even rhythm,like in songs,our,our brain loves,you know,certain rhythms.But the to push the envelope on the creative side,you have to break out of those rhythms and that's when you end up having,you know,super cool stories.If not,you end up just fall,falling into the mold of,of any other story,but to be truly creative,you want to try and break the norm.And I believe that that's where A I is gonna have a hard time because it's using data sets and it's,you know,it doesn't have that,that soul and in a way it doesn't have that nostalgia,it doesn't have the moments in history where,you know,that it appreciates that it was alive.It doesn't have that right.So I'm not worried about it making better stories than what we as humans can be.Um That's,that's what I think.Yeah.And for me,you know,hearing Kevin speak about the,the journey in the future and I mean,even 10 years ago,what he was predicting and what he was talking about in one of the presentations,I saw that he literally understood that um imagination and,and to your point,soul is something that is gonna be very difficult to replace.Definitely.Right.And so we can,we can come up with content,we can come up with ideas,but the imagination and the soul of that is still gonna be lacking.And I don't know if that's ever gonna be in maybe in our lifetime.Who knows with A I how it's gonna happen.But it,it still is storytelling is so impactful and still powerful and understanding how powerful it can be even in this crazy world of A I right now that it's still very relevant for us,all of us.So I guess keep on telling your stories.
 

Welcome to the Chucklebucket - Comedy in Storytelling - BONUS CHRISTMAS EPISODE!

A great comedian is one who tells stories in a funny way, not to be confused with telling funny stories.
Our guest on this BONUS episode is none other than Dave Coulier! Born and raised in Detroit, Dave is an actor, stand-up comedian, impressionist, and television host (and massive Detroit Red Wings fan). He was of course, Joey Gladstone on the ABC sitcom Full House, he's also voiced Peter Venkman on The Real Ghostbusters, and Animal and Bunsen on Muppet Babies, just to name a few of the many characters he's portrayed and voiced over his illustrious career.
Folktellers Studios | Folktellers Universe
Dave Coulier
 
#StoryTelling
#Comedy
#FolkTellers
#DaveCoulier
#FullHouse
#FunnyStories
#StoriesToBeShared
#FullHouse
 
Welcome everyone.Week 13,we call this episode a welcome to the Chuckle Bucket because we're talking about comedy in storytelling.Uh This is Joseph and I'm here with my enigmatic Stephen and the Stoic.What is this podcast,by the way,you didn't mention that?Oh,this is,uh,well,Steve calls this the bonus Christmas episode because for people that don't watch,uh,Steve is British and Canadian and American and people who don't watch British television,actually,their,uh,their season changes,the Christmas episode,unlike,right.So,uh I have a word for you today.What's that?You're a logo,file,a logo,file,logos is Greek for words,isn't it?You're someone that loves words.I do.So I had to look that up.I mean,you've been giving us words adjectives all the way through this series.So,you know,I actually took the time.Well,to search Google for like three seconds.Find that word for you.Well,I do my thank you.Um All right.So here's our,here's our quote.And by the way,uh we've got a,we've got a really cool guest for our bonus Christmas episode.Uh Dave uh comedian,actor pilot.Uh,he's,you'll be shocked when you hear all the things that he's into,uh,he's gonna be our guest on in a little bit.So,um,here's our opening.Um,this quote is a great comedian is one who tells stories in a funny way that is not to be confused with telling funny stories.And then the other piece is,this is the,the equation for comedy,comedy equals tragedy plus time.So,I,I will,I'll open with that.What do you guys,how does that make you feel?Yeah.The first thing that comes to mind to me is that sometimes it's too,it's,it's too close to the truth to be funny because of the timing.Yeah.Yeah.So you hear that?What's,what's that expression?Uh,oh,too soon.I think that's what,isn't that what they're referring to?Like,uh,not enough time has passed to make this funny,to make this funny?So,so that's where the math comes in,in the equation here,I guess with my engineering hat on,I'm looking at this and going,this is an equation interesting.What would you call,what would you call it?I know.I see a plus symbol.A sign.Well,you put them there.That doesn't make it.I didn't put them there.I guess that makes it come just the fact you're making this into an,that's,that's funny within itself.Here you go.What a way to start,what a way to start.Um OK,so I wanna,I wanna add on to this,so this idea of uh comedy Eagles tragedy plus time.Uh So,so sometimes the stories themselves can be funny but sometimes they're,they're actually heartbreaking stories with humor injected and that makes them more palatable that,which they otherwise would be too hard to hear.Do you think that's true?They use comedy for that?Like Shrek win?What do you mean by that?Well,Shrek,I mean,it's a sad story but I mean,there's comedy interjected all the way through it.Yeah,there's some depth ogres are like onions,layers,layers.Yeah,I think the biggest thing about comedy for me is it,it has to relate to where I'm at today,right?You talk about the timing of it.In other words,I could hear something that was funny.We,we were just talking about that.Actually,I had some college teammates,we got together the last couple of days and we were talking about things that were funny to us during college.We don't find as whimsical now,right?Or whimsical,whimsical now.And so uh so that even though as our lives change,that comedy might change as well,yeah,it's definitely timing is a key part to,to comedy,not just in the moment,but you know,in the era,right?There's lots of comedians like,like stuff that Eddie Murphy did many,many years ago that I used to just piss and now I look at it and it's like,well,yeah,it's not as funny as it was back then,but it was definitely funny in the day.So,so do you think your sense of humor changes with age?Absolutely.It does.Yeah.Yeah.In fact,it probably diminishes with age,I think sometimes.Right.I don't know if it's for you,Kurt,how has it,how has it changed?Yeah,I think for me,uh,it's become more sophisticated.Right.I'm not as,it,it,it doesn't take,uh,somebody farting for me to fall out of my chair now.I mean,yeah,I still chuckle a little bit but it's not as funny as it was wrong.I'm sorry?Yeah,you look at,uh,the blazing saddles.The scene around the campfire when the guys are eating beans and blazing saddles is funny and I still find that.Yeah.Yeah.There's still parts of it that are definitely.But again,timing too.Some of that is very controversial today than what it was.Well,you always have to fart at the right time.Not just the farting scene,but is there a wrong time?No,not really.Well,our audience,I think,yeah,if there are any women,they're like,you guys are disgusting.That's the other thing too.It's like when you're with women that's a bad time to far.Unless they're farting.I,I'll,I'll tell you what my there and then my,my far is not going well.This is my,this is my,like,fart scam,uh,dating far.What I would do is I'd open the door for my date and then I close the door and then I,when I walked around the car,that's when I let them all out because,you know,you had to like those all built up over the evening.Do you know what that is?What's that timing?It was timing.Here you go.It was a tragedy.You know,I'm starting to think that your formula is correct.Well,it was,it's not my formula.I can't take credit for it.Oh,my gosh.So,so Kurt,I guess farts still are funny.Certain parts.Yeah.Far.No pun intended.Oh my God.So,where do we all right.Where do you move from there?Yeah.Where do we?Well,everyone,we're so happy and excited to have,uh,Dave on with us.Good morning,Dave.Good morning.Is it morning everywhere?Um,it's what says that a Jimmy Buffett song,uh,it's morning somewhere or something.It's,it's somewhere,it's somewhere.Well,you're here with Joseph and Kurt and Steve.Then it is a good morning.Yes.Top of the morning to you,I'll start with the voices and then that was just to Tu of Dave because you're the expert.So,so for people that don't know,Dave Cooler that have been under a rock for 40 years.Uh Dave is not only an actor,a comedian but uh he has a bunch of secret talents like being a pilot and a home builder and,and many other things and Dave.So today we're talking about comedy in storytelling and we teed up,uh uh before you came on,uh the equation,I'm sure you've heard it before.That comedy equals tragedy plus time.Do you buy that?Do you think that's true or like as a,as a comedian?You know,what's your take on,on,uh comedy and storytelling?I never took any of those courses.You know,my joke is I,I didn't go to college.I couldn't find a parking spot.Um So,you know,comedy for me is a lot of the time listening because when I write jokes,I'll hear something and it,it kind of triggers something inside of me where I just try to turn that into a laugh.So for me,it's being very aware of your surroundings listening and to,to go back to your point.Uh I didn't have a tragic childhood but in some ways it was a disappointing childhood because I grew up very Catholic.I went to Catholic schools my entire life.Uh from second grade catechism to third grade through eighth grade in a,in a Catholic school.And then an all boys Catholic High school,Notre Dame High School in Detroit when I was,when I was nine years old,uh,everybody I knew was Catholic.And so,um,you know,I,with that in mind when my parents got divorced at nine,I was the only divorced kid.So I kind of carried around this banner of,you know,banner of shame.Yeah,it was,it was guilt and it was guilt and shame and every other thing that,you know,that you're supposed to feel at that moment.So,for me that's when I got funny and I gravitated towards a hockey locker room where there was a built in audience.I gravitated towards funny kids.My friend Mark Sands and at that point,I just really started to devour comedy.So,so to,to talk to your point,Joseph,it's,it,it is rooted somewhat in tragedy for me and it was overcoming the sadness that I felt when I was home.Hey,Dave,this is Kurt and,and having grown up 12 years of Catholic education myself,I just wondered how the nuns and the priests handled that when,when that came out at age of nine for you.Well,um,you know,it's funny because when I was,um,you know,doing sound effects and voices and stuff,the,the priests and the nuns all and my teachers all called it noises and then,and then,and I was very disruptive and,you know,then when they would come to my shows later on when I started doing stand up,oh,my gosh.You were such a funny kid.Those sound effects you did.Suddenly the complexion of who I was as a child completely changed.Once there was an audience you were a professional at doing it now.Yeah.At that point it's funny.Yeah.That's actually really interesting.Actually I grew up Catholic too and I found out that sort of,that repressive um,environment,uh,really lent itself to elevating uh,the,the humor,like,like,you know,if you were,if you were at mass,like,just,just like the worst place.But what about the Catholic girls?What about them?Well,the Catholic girls were always the rat girls.The public school were always the kind of the tame calm girls.So,you know,I went to an all boys Catholic high school and right next to Notre Dame was Regina high school and,you know,they were mooning more than guys.It's easy with the short skirts,I guess.And back to the back to the repression,you know,you put that kind of pressure on a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.Something's going to squeeze out the side that it reminds me of,uh reminds me of Gary Shandling's joke.He would go on stage and he'd say this is a dress shirt,but I wear it with pants all the time.So I,you know,I was thinking like we,when we've talked before,so you moved from like sort of you used comedy and and,and storytelling and,and characters and,and,and doing voices,uh,from a,from a tragic moment in your life.But then you,you know,you made a,you made a living at it.And what I found really interesting when you were talking to us before is how you really sort of codified that into like that you actually have to write because I think a lot of people when they see a comedian up there,uh,telling stories and telling jokes,um,that it,it,it feels very like they just made it up on the fly when actually,you know,you've prepared.Um,I mean,there's like a whole rhythm.I think you,Dave,when we were talking before,you compared it to,to like a jazz performance.But how did,so how did you move from sort of this innate organic,uh,uh,abilities into making a living at it?Well,I,I,um,I didn't know it at the time but I was focused and I was really focused on how do I do what I'm listening to on records and seeing on television?I,I was watching stand ups and I thought,how do I,how do I make that transition from?I'm a funny guy in the locker room to,I want to be the funny guy on a stage in front of 1000 people.And so there wasn't comedy college.So he went to a,you know,college prep high school.I remember going to the counselor that senior year and they would just go Dave,I don't even know what to tell you.And I,and,you know,and at that point I had already been doing shows in the cafeteria and,and on stage and,and so,and I,and I had a great partner,a couple of partners in crime and we used to call ourselves the Three Stooges.And there was two guys named Mark San Drowsy and Tom Keenan.And we were the Three Stooges and we would do shows and,and hearing those laughs in high school,we put together a whole two hour program at the,at the Regina stage next door and it sold out like 800 people came to this show that we,that we promoted ourselves.And it was just because I had this focus of how do I become a professional funny person.And there really wasn't anyone I could talk to.There really wasn't anything that I could gravitate towards.I,I drove my car when I was 17 to Chicago and I snuck into second City and a bunch of comedy clubs there.And so I was just searching and,and I had to do it by myself.And then miraculously,the Comedy Castle opened in Detroit and I was 18.And suddenly it was,if the,you know,the,the Pearly Gates opened and I suddenly had a canvas to paint on and there were other young comedians there.And for me,that was Comedy College,that was suddenly getting a forum where I could just try things.And it was,it was incredible because I had this,this support system of guys,Tim Allen and Mark Ridley,who owned the Comedy Castle and other young comedians who were trying to do the same thing.I was so suddenly,um,everything that I thought in my head about the possibilities of being professional came true.Well,and,and Dave,you know,you talk about that era that you were coming through there with Mark's Place there,what,you know,you think about some of the other names,right on top of yours.And that you mentioned Tim Allen,who,who was your idol at that time?Did you have an idol at that time?And who was it that you were trying to emulate?Well,originally I gravitated towards Jackie Gleason because I thought he was so funny as a physical comedian and an actor.And so Jackie Gleason was my favorite.And then I started listening to albums and I gravitated towards George Carlin,but I didn't have his acerbic wit.I just,I just marveled at how he was such an incredible wordsmith about,you know,uh politics and,you know,he was right on the pulse of what was happening politically and,you know,socially and so that,you know,was a bit of an influence,even though I knew he couldn't be that ever.Um And then when Steve Martin and Robin William Williams burst onto the scene,I realized that doing voices and characters and wearing a funny balloon on your head was all in the realm of possibility.So I was doing characters and voices and,and music and suddenly I thought,wow,this is,uh,this is the new frontier.And so,um,you know,like every kid my age,I listened to Cosby and I was blown away by Richard Pryor.And,um,you know,I would listen to Monty Python and,and I used to watch Monty Python's Flying Circus at 11 30 at night um during high school.So there were all of these things that I searched for and I started to kind of mold who I could possibly be.So,Dave,I mean,obviously a lot of people know you uh from full house that when I met you,uh the thing that interested me the most is how multifaceted that you are.Um And also like you,you really kind of move,you really like tech,which kind of blew my mind,right?And everyone thinks,oh,he's just a comedian but you're not,I mean,you're a pilot and you do many other things that probably a lot,a lot of people don't know that you do.But my question is like,what gravitates you towards those other things like tech.It's um having a right brain and a left brain that are in constant conflict with each other and,and,you know,as much as I love creativity,I love the creativity that goes into technical as well.It's all about creating,it's all about possibilities and,and I've always thought those things out,what are the possibilities.And when I got my first IBM computer and you had to,you had to basically write dots and C++ if you wanted anything cool to come out,spit out of it.That's for sure.I,I really thought,wow,this is just a whole different creative dimension.And you know,my dad flew and my son's a pilot for fedex and,and I flew and I still fly and I always loved the mathematical equations that could bring you into this extremely creative world of I can go anywhere I want in a 3d space.So,so,so my right brain connected with my left brain,but it was all about the creative options that both of those hemispheres,you know,uh Good support,Dave,like how does all this roll back into comedy and into storytelling?So clearly,you're a creator and you're using both sides of your brain.Um Like we've talked throughout this entire podcast about the different facets and applications of,of storytelling and,and you really are so much more um than just a,just a comedian.So how do you like in your life if you view,you know,the life and the way you communicate um as storytelling or like,what's your,you know,what's your perspective on that?Well,like a great song,people will always sit and listen to a great story over and over and over again.And,you know,you can go back through the history of all time and you will listen to a story each time,even though you know,the beginning in the middle of the end,you still are going to listen to that fascinating story.And so,you know,what I do is,um there is no different than,you know,writing a book.I'm just writing a book that gets laughs for an hour.So,so that's with stand up.And when I write a TV show or movies or right now,I'm in the middle of um selling an animated series that I created um called Yum Yum and,and it's,it's for little kids,it's for five year olds.And so yesterday we pitched to um uh Christopher Updike at,at um the Peacock Network.And,and so,you know,I have to get into my five year old brain,but it's,it's still telling a story for a five year old and,and,you know,it's,it,it all,you know,is,is encompassed by my own professional immaturity.Um It sounds like a little fun sometimes getting into our five year old brain,professional immaturity.Well,some are in it all the time.Yeah,I just,I just,you know,I've always told people I,I don't want to grow up because I'll be out of a job.Right.And,and so,you know,when we talk about,you know,the right and left hemisphere of my brain,my wife will tell you,I don't think he has a brain because somewhere in the middle,the way,not the way he acts at home.You know,and it's like,because I'm,I'm immature,you know,but that's what fuels me.You know,if I,I can't see someone bend over without thinking about making a fart sound.There we go.You stick a fork in the crack or something.You didn't hear the beginning of the podcast.It was all fart joke.Yeah.Kurt Kurt said,uh,farts aren't funny anymore and we,no,no,no.Wait a minute.I didn't say as funny as funny.Ok.And we,we,we strongly disagreed.Hey,Dave,I got a question.Is that as spelled a ss,the farts are as funny as funny.Dave.I got a question of all the titles.I mean,I've heard the title comedian,uh,obviously pilot,um,you know,creator.Which one of those resonates?How do you identify yourself?You're missing the key one,which is hockey player,hockey player.Yeah.In Dave's mind.What?That's,that's the only one I worry about.What is it that you identify as yourself?What you,you like?Don't go there,don't go there.I love,I love chocolate.So I'm a Hershey.That was Sao joke.I,I'm gonna tell you just,just because I love Bob so much and how irreverent and,and silly and stupid he was,he would sing a song and he goes,sometimes I feel like a nut sometimes you don't,I've got two big nuts.My mom don't.That was from his dad.That was from his,um,you know,I,I identify just,you know,um,Steve when you,when you mention hockey,hockey,to me again,is creativity on the ice because it's so fluid and,and improvisational and it's constantly changing and you get to be,if you have the puck,you get to be creative with the puck and even if you don't have the puck,you get to do something creative to where you have the possibility of receiving the puck.So to me that fluidity of hockey is,is creativity and,you know,it's,you know,it's the only sport that I've ever played where you get to experience that kind of creativity and adrenaline,especially,especially at high speeds.Yeah.Which I don't experience anymore.It's all relative.Yeah,I'm,I'm looking for the drop pass going both ways now.It seems like.Um,so,so I,as far as identifying,I love,I'm like the guy on the Ed Sullivan show,I love spinning all those different plates and keeping them going.That's what,that's what drives me and that's what fuels me and,and,you know,I,I wanted to build our,our home,which we're building now here in,in Michigan.My wife and I,how's that going?Um It's,it's,you know,juggling contractors is like juggling cats.They just land everywhere and are never where you think they're gonna be.And,and,you know,uh,I've heard every,the dog ate my homework story.Um,you know,so it's,it's a challenge working with so many people.I liken it to when I'm directing a TV show because the plans are the script.But man,sometimes you have some really shitty actors and,and sometimes,you know,when you're building a house,that's the case where you just have to go.Well,we still have to do the show.Um You know,some of the actors aren't going to be as strong as our star.But you know,you do find those stars and,and get the house built,you know,but um iii,I enjoy doing lots of different things that,that's what fuels me.So I could never,I,I think probably stand up is my favorite thing because it's live and you get to hear the instant feedback for something you wrote earlier in the day and it's such gratification.Well,if you want some more practice juggling cats,you can come over to my place anytime.So jeez,we got lots of them.Hey,Dave,I got a question for you.You know,we talk about stories on this uh podcast here and,and obviously yours has been AAA journey.How,how do you,how do you see this journey continuing or,or um I don't wanna say ending because I don't ever want to see it end for you.But what,what do you see this story for you?Creator director?Yeah.What,what is it that your journey for your journey?Uh I don't know,I,I honestly don't know,you know,um life is like being in an improv class,you know,it's like sometimes you're gonna get rewarded with a laugh and you'll be able to finish the scene and other times you have to scurry off stage so somebody else can get up there,you know.So I,I really don't know.I know that it gets more and more exciting,the more with the more history that I had behind me.And I think being able to,to look back and say,wow,I have a real history here.Um I get to enjoy it all over again.I'm,I'm doing a podcast called Full House Rewind.And um we're standing down for the moment to support our fellow um uh S A and uh A a and WG A um you know,our,our unions.So,um but I get to relive all 192 Full House episodes of which I've,I've never watched the show.So for me,it's like going back in time and seeing this 27 year old comedian become an actor on national television.So I get to kind of look at myself and go,oh,that kid was kind of funny.That's pretty cool.So,it's so,it's a,it's a journey that I get to look both ways now and,and,um,I don't know what the forward journey is gonna be like.And to me that's really exciting.I know that terrifies a lot of people,but for me,I don't know if I'm going to get a phone call later today.You know,people saying,hey,were you on the Folk Tellers podcast?Man?I wanna,I want you to be the head of General Motors.It's a usual transition for our guest,isn't it?Yeah.So it's exciting both ways now,you know,and it's,and it's,um,it's really quite lovely that I,that I get to experience this.Hey,so Dave,you know,I heard you mention 100 and 92 shows,a full house and you've not watched one.Is that correct?That is correct.Yeah,I,I would see little snippets of myself,but it would be once the show was in syndication and I'd be walking through an airport and I'd hear my own voice and look over at a monitor and go,wow,that's a really bad haircut and even worse outfit.And so that,why,why is that,that you had a hard time watching?Well,because when we were airing,we were shooting and I never had time to and I was also,I was also hosting America's Funniest people on ABC.And then I was also recording the real Ghostbusters cartoon for ABC and the Muppet Babies cartoon for CBS.And,and then I was also trying to do stand up because it was,you know,everybody told me,you know,stand ups who I really respected guys like Robin Williams,you know,would say stuff like grab the fucking money now.And,you know,and,and I was,I,you know,I was,I was like,you know,going out,I was playing Pine Knob in Detroit,played there three times.I,you know,was playing big theaters,you know,10,000 cedars.And,um,you know,that was really exciting.I was exhausted jumping up on the stage after,you know,working on my shows.But,you know,uh everything kind of also ended at the same time.Full House America's Funniest people.Muppet Babies and Ghostbusters all got canceled the same season.And so there I was just going,ok,well,that was a hell of a roller coaster ride.Now.What?And so I was never really interested in watching Full House because I was on,you know,I was moving forward of,ok,what do I do now?That,that's behind me.That was great.But then Full House kind of had a cumulative effect in my life where it just kept catching up with me because of the popularity of the show and syndication.And then Fuller House came back and,and I just thought,well,it's never gonna get better than that.So let's embrace it.And I thought the best way to embrace it is to talk about it on a podcast.Well,Dave,we appreciate you coming on today.And,um,before you go,I have to ask from a,to storytelling perspective not to put you on the spot,but like,what's your,what's your like one of your go to stories that you know,is gonna kill,whether it's a joke or a story that's gonna kind of kill every time long or short.What's your,what's one of your go tos?Well,uh,I have a bunch of them,uh,because I do have that history that I talked about earlier.Uh,one of my great thrills was being able to go up in an F-18 with the Blue Angels.And,um,I got to fly my airplane out in California to El Centro where they were practicing the Blue Angels show.And so I flew out there and,um,when I got into their airspace 2 F-18s,uh,saddled up next to me and escorted me down to where I was landing and when I was landing,they both peeled away with full after burners and it was really loud even through the drone of my,my,uh power plant on my bonanza.And so it was a huge thrill for me,but then I still had to take this,this ride.And so they told me the night before,don't eat,just don't eat.Ok.I'm like water and they're like,yes,water is,is ok.But don't eat the night before and don't eat the next morning.I was like,oh,ok.So I'm like,hm,I guess the words vomit comet really?You know,start this.So I got there to the base and the,and the navy people were unbelievable.The blue angel team were,were just,you know,above and beyond my greatest expectations.And then for three hours,they pretty much programmed me and took me through what was gonna,what I was gonna experience on my,my flight.And so by the time they,you know,ran me through this,I was so hungry and I was feeling like I was hypoglycemic and,and so much expectation and adrenaline and they show me this hook maneuver and they said,you know,when the pilot says,stand by,stand by and then hook on the second standby grunt as hard as you can because you're not going to be wearing a G suit and you're gonna try and keep the blood from,you know,going out to your extremities.And so I practiced my hook maneuver and then got in the plane and my pilot had never given a VIP ride.They call it before and his nickname was hoops because he was the tallest pilot that they'd ever had in their squadron and he was good at basketball.So I climb in with hoops and he's sitting in front of me.Um,I'm in the back seat and,um,we take off and,you know,we're rolling out 100 and 60 knots.And he says,all right,Dave,um,stand by,stand by hook and he,and I didn't catch the hook maneuver properly and we went straight up with full after burner and I woke up when we were upside down over the field and he said,oh,you want to sleep there,Dave you good.And I'm like,yes,I'm good.And so then he goes,ok,let's go enjoy your ride.And I thought,oh,no,I passed out on the first maneuver I hadn't done for.So I passed out a bunch of times and,um,you know,I was upside down at one point and for some reason I thought,I think I have to crap my pants.You,you should have,you should have been wearing your G string.Exactly.Exactly.To,to combat the G forces that I was feeling in my pants.So I'm upside down and all I could think the comedian comes out of me as my body is in total panic mode.And I'm upside down and I thought if I crap right now I'm upside down,it's going to go into my own face and all I could think of was maybe this is where the phrase shit face came from.And so that was,that was my ride.And,um,they,uh,beat me up so badly.Hoops beat me up so badly.They reviewed the cockpit footage that they had of me and the lieutenant of the squadron said,Dave,look,hoops beat you up pretty bad.We looked at the footage,if we can convince you to stay overnight,we'll give you a better ride tomorrow.So I actually,by passing out as much as I did,uh,got me two rides and instead of just one and where is that footage?Now?Uh,that was classified.I said,can I watch it?And they said no,it's,did you actually poop?That's what I'm,I know.II I didn't,I didn't,I didn't poop but man,did I blow a Navy seal.But,um,oh my God,it's all back to poop.I,sorry,that was beautiful.That was,be a beautiful way to,to wrap up our interview with Dave.Dave.Where can,uh,people learn more about your adventures and all the things that you're doing?Uh,they can just go to my website.It's my name dot com or,um,you know,if you want to hear,uh,my podcast is a TV show so you can watch it on youtube just,uh,you know,Search for Full House rewind and our first episode is pretty fascinating.You'll hear some stuff that you've never heard about.Full House as I interview the creator of Full House Jeff Franklin.Cool.Excellent.Well,Dave,thanks again for being on.It's always a joy and a pleasure and a laugh to uh to speak with you and to and to have you in our presence.So,thank you so much.Thank you.I thank the world to you guys and um you know,thanks for having me.All right,take care.We'll talk to you soon.Take care.Bye bye questions here.So,um uh Dave did not disappoint.Uh No,so we got into sort of the craft of a little bit of comedy and then the crap of comedy.Um So let's talk a little bit about the,the storytelling piece of it.Um In your guys' mind what,what kind of stories make for the best comedy I I think for me it's real,right?It's gotta be real like the stories he tells and the story he told at the end,especially about.Uh it's very real,right?It's,it's taking a life experience and making that chemical in my opinion.What,why,what,why do you think it has to be real?To me,it doesn't have to be real,but to me it,it makes it funny to understand this is a comedy in that situation.Uh You know,I I can't help but think about Seinfeld,right?This is a show about nothing.And so he takes nothing,he takes situations in life and makes him funny.I would say the reality piece grounds it.I mean,ii,I agree with you,Steve.What do you think?It,it's like the,the gentle poke at societal norms.I mean,George Carlin was gentle.Yeah,it wasn't very gentle.No,he wasn't gentle.But,uh,you know,it is,those,those pokes at those norms.Right.Uh,those definitely make for comedy.Um,but that's a timing thing too.I mean,it can be not sensitive if it's not done in the right time frame.Right.So,so that's a good point.So,um,what kind of storytelling do you think doesn't fit a come?When does,when does it,uh,ring poorly,like,or poorly executed comedic story in your mind?Yeah.I think in,in my opinion,it's,it's when the tragedy is,is I don't wanna say too big but it's,it's like,oh,it's not really funny because,you know,eight people died or these Children were whatever happened to these Children.And,yeah,when,when it's something too tragic,I think that takes away from the comedy of it.I mean,can we,can we have a,a different viewpoint about it?Sure.But when you're trying to make something as tragic as a huge event,um,in my opinion,especially if it's a sensitive thing,Children,uh,you know,things of that sort in my opinion,but there's certain genres that are very hard to put comedy into like science fiction,for example,it's hard to do that.Um Irwin Allen was an expert at it lost in space and a lot of those other things that he did,uh,even Paul Verhoeven,I mean,I,I've mentioned,you know,total recall once before,which I'm not supposed to mention.But,uh,but that movie has comedy in it and that's hard to do in,in dealing with those types of themes,especially science fiction and things.So and so it's,it,it,it's very hard to do in,in,you know,that type of stuff and stories.But what,what,what it really impressed me about Dave though was how everything he's experienced his whole journey,his story and yet how grounded he is.In fact,I,I didn't get a chance.I wanted to ask him about that.If what grounds you,what,what keeps you,your feet on the ground when you have your head in this class like this,this plane?Yeah.Yeah.Playing hockey perhaps.I mean,he love,I,I like II,I spoke to him in length about hockey and he loves hockey and uh he's so right about,you know,you,you played a lot of sports,it is the creativity of the game and how things you know,change directly in real time in front of you.That's why we keep playing sports like that.But um,he also gets to play with all his buddies,all the kids that he grew up with,he's,uh,I think he plays on the same line now that he did with,with one of his friends that,uh,he went to high school.It says a lot right there.Yes,he's,he's,um,he's grounded,very grounded with his friends and family.That's why he move back here.He said,I think,um,you know,coming back to where you grew up and having friends and family around you and you're in the same geography now,um,that has a gravitational pull,I think.But what,what do you think about your question?How do you answer your question?What was my question?I don't know,that was a while ago about one thing about when,uh was it,uh the storytelling when comedy is not when it doesn't ring true.Uh Well,I think in this day and age you've got to be,I remember Will Ferrell saying,uh,um,true comedians are fearless,like fearless in what they say and what they do.And I think it's very hard um,nowadays to be that type of fearless comedian because,you know,everyone's so hypersensitive and,um about,about whatever and,you know,we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.But,um,I,I think a modern comedian that's probably the biggest challenge is all of a sudden,you know,and for comedians in,in the,in the construct of comedy,nothing should be taboo to talk about.It's a joke.And you hear the comedian say,I'm telling jokes up here,I'm telling a funny story.And uh it's supposed to be provocative.What people don't realize is,um,in tradition,the,the comedian,the fool was the truth teller and they got away with it.They could say it to the king because they told it as a joke without getting their heads chopped without getting their heads chopped off.So,and like,and in Shakespeare,the only one who told the truth was the fool and nobody listened to the fool.So even the tradition of comedy is the tradition of truth telling in a,in a funny entertaining way.But it's a high risk geek.It's social media that's changed that today because whatever is trending today could actually make things something funny or not funny.That's how timing affects that formula that you put in.I mean,it's,it's really totally different times to your point.It is harder to now today to do something to make it funny because you have to be,especially if there's money attached to it,like he said,chasing the money,right?If there's money attached to it and you offend somebody or somebody gets upset and they are writing the check,it changes everything and you're canceled,correct?Yeah,I mean,Dave came up at a time.What,what people who are,aren't as old as we are.What they don't realize is,you know,back before Comedy Central,which came out,I think it was mid eighties,maybe,um,cable television.And there was a renaissance of stand up comedy before that.It was like,kind of like,you know,the,the nightclub comedy,like the comedians,uh,from the fifties and sixties and you'd see on Ed Sullivan and then there was like,there wasn't that in the seventies but into the eighties,uh there was a whole renaissance of stand up stand up comedians and comedy.That's when Dave came in.So he came in at a really,really a really good time.Um But now,you know,I think it's a lot harder,um,trying to be funny on youtube.Yeah,or in a podcast with what I,what I appreciate about Dave is because we all remember the class clowns,so to speak,you know,infamous class clowns growing up.And what,what was neat about hearing Dave's story is how he talked about.I,I did it purposely,I saw what was happening and I thought,boy,I wanna do this for a living.I want to do this because I love it.Uh He did the homework,he put the work in,he put the grind in to be able to continue that.I mean,I think about some of the class clowns that I grew up with and I'm like,well,where are they now?And what are they doing?I see them on Facebook all the time.And I wrote to myself,those guys are pretty funny,you know.But they,they just didn't get the opportunity.They didn't put the work in.That's it.Exactly.Like you hear,you hear if you step back from Dave's story,so his comedic chops were honed on a tragic event in his childhood.But so he had that sort of innate creativity and he's a creator.So he had the,he had the,the chops,but he also had the work ethic and the passion to say,I wanna,you know,I wanna do this for a living.I wanna,you know,I want to make a living at this and it's that balance like,and,you know,he was talking about the right side,left side of his brain and he's so interested in so many things.But the reason he's successful is because he has the balance between the vision and the creativity and then the work ethic and the ability to like codify II,I remember Dave saying to us uh something before when we had a breakfast with him um about what his father said,you know,it's like he didn't really understand the work that went into what Dave was doing.It's like,oh,you just get paid for telling jokes and that,right?But the fact of the matter is,it's not,it wasn't that easy.I mean,it's not that easy.If you're gonna record that many shows,that's why he didn't watch all those shows.He didn't have any time.He's,he's working on the next,on the next thing he's not sitting on,you know,sitting on cable or back then it probably be antenna.All right,good one guys.Thank you.

A Thousand Words – the Power of Pictures, Paint and Visual Storytelling

How do images add or take away from a written story?
What is Visual Literacy in the Modern World?
What is the future of art in visual storytelling?
Our guest is Patrick McEvoy - an artist working in comics, illustration and multimedia animation, working professionally for over 25 years.
"In terms of genre, I've done Fantasy, SF, horror, and educational work (for ages ranging from kids to high school to college)."
"In the past I have worked on contract with Marvel, doing dozens of pictures for the Marvel Style Guide, lots of advertising, and other behind-the-scenes art. And you may have seen my work on a lot of game art, such as Arkham Horror, Call of Cthulhu, Warcraft CCG, Legend of the Five rings, and even about 100 cards for the Game of Thrones CCG."
 
Folktellers Studios | Folktellers Universe
 
#Storytelling
#Folktellers
#Stories
#PatrickMcEvoy
#VisualStorytelling
 
Well,welcome everyone to the folk tellers stories to be shared podcast.It's week 11 and we're talking about 1000 words,the power of pictures,paint and visual storytelling.And I wanted to,uh,before I warm everyone up with our little thoughts for the day,let's introduce my compatriots.We have the stunning Steve Sadler.Oh,I like that word.Do you know why?Because I understand that word and the uh incomparable,that's good.There's two words we can understand and you can feel good about yourself.So I appreciate it.I just can't believe this has been a week 11 now.I mean,that's unbelievable,but it's a good thing.They say time flies and having fun,but it's still fun.We're still having fun.That's what I'm saying.This is work and this is,this is a conundrum.This is a OK.All right.So here we are week 11,we're talking about visual storytelling power of pictures.Um We're gonna have uh Patrick mcavoy on a little bit in a little bit.Um Patrick's a uh incredible artist.He does a lot of work for folk tellers and he's a big fan of Jack Kirby and people don't know who Jack Kirby is.Jack Kirby was um the Marvel artist who came up with all the biggies.He came up with the Hulk and Spiderman.And you know,it's funny,people always think Stan Lee.Stan Lee wasn't an artist.He was a writer.Uh Jack Kirby was the one who came up with,with the,the look,the,that the Marvel look.So one of the things Jack Kirby said was says,I achieve perfection.My type of perfection through visual storytelling,storytelling was my style.And then I've got another quote here.It says um this is Anthony Demelo.Um He's a uh he,I think he's actually a priest and uh uh he's a famous storyteller speaker.Um You have to understand that the shortest distance between a human being and the truth is a story.So those are our two icebreakers,gentlemen.Like,so one of the first big questions is we're gonna get into visual storytelling.So to you,what,what do you think visual storytelling is?I leave the floor open.Well,uh an image is 1000 words,right?Yeah.Pick a picture or a picture is 1000 words.I don't know what,what is the the exact phrase we're supposed to be a picture is worth 1000 words or an image,right?Or an image,right?Well,we,we're in digital today.What does that mean?We'll,we'll use image because what,what what does that really mean?Is that true or is that just a absolutely sure it is.I could look at an image and,and pull a lot of context out of that image just by looking at it just like I can if I'm driving my car down the road,I mean,that's an image that or,you know,or a picture that I'm looking at,right as I'm driving and uh and I'm pulling that story out of it.So,yeah,definitely without,without words.So from an audience perspective,and this is what,what,what I found as,as a writer,um as a writer,what I've chosen or what's been put upon me is the uh the craft that takes the longest to engage with uh where visual media,it's instantaneous,like music like you hear,you hear a couple notes or you see something visually.Um There's an immediate response reaction and either rejection or engagement where in writing it's like you have to read it,you have to process it and then you have to reflect on it before you're really engaging with it.So it's a,it's a much longer process.So,Kurt,what's your take?Yeah,for me,you've brought up music it because we did a couple of episodes uh or a couple of episodes ago,we talked about music.To me,it's the lyrics and,and the melody coming together.That's where the story with the visuals come together,right?It's like the music has the melody line,but then you have the lyrics that match it with,with the vision part of it.To me it's a,it's a,I have to see the vision match the narrative.In other words,I could have this story.But when I see an image that attaches to it,oh my God,you,you know,you brought up about Marvel,I mean,think about the imagery of those characters that are part of the story,part of the narrative.That's the powerful part of it.I mean,I can look at an image from Marvel and say,oh yeah,I know exactly who that is without knowing a story without seeing the story.Then why do people say I saw the movie and the book was better?Why do you think that's such a common statement?My daughter is a big reader.I mean,she's the kind of person that could actually pick up like a Harry novel,Harry Potter.Harry novel.It was a slip there,a Harry Potter novel and she can literally read that book in a day.I could,I could never do that.It would take me a month to read every time that she sees the movie.She goes,well,that's not as good as the book.And I'm like,well,why isn't it?She goes because in her mind,you're,you're,you create a mental picture while you're reading and many times it's better than what they can ever come up with in Hollywood.Well,I think part of it too is just simple length.Right.You have a 500 page novel like that.Right.There,much more detail can be gotten into and as opposed to a 60 90 you know,even a three hour movie.Right.There's only so much time you have for that.Yeah.There,there's greater constraints from a production standpoint,I think on,on doing a feature film,you know,you've got,yeah,you've got 90 minutes or,or whatever,whatever the standard is.So if they're adapting from a book,you know,a book,you just can keep writing more pages,you know,more series.Yeah.So,yeah,I think,I think that's one of the challenges uh in that there's,there's more constraints so the book can have more,usually has more detail to it,especially JK Rawlings.I mean,she is very detailed in her stories.Yes.Right to the,you know,the color of the wood and the texture of the door handles and stuff like that.So that's a good point,Stephen,because the visual doesn't necessarily have to be an actual visual.It could be something created in our mind from reading that it's a,it's a mental picture that,that you're making.But when we talk to Patrick,you're,you're gonna understand how his mind works because that's literally what Joseph and I do for him.We give him that mental picture and he converts it into the beautiful art that he's been doing for many,many years.He's just absolutely incredible.So you guys,we have our friend and another compatriot,our art director extraordinaire,uh Patrick mcilroy.So a little background on Patrick,uh he will not tell you this himself,but he's done a ton of work for Marvel and Disney and Sony.And he,I mean,he really is a,a incredibly,not only a talented artist but a visual designer and a visual storyteller himself.So,uh Patrick,great to have you on.Well,great to be here.Thanks.Uh Yeah,if you uh ever want me to blow my own horn,I,I am happy to,oh,well,by the time we're done,it's better when someone else gets the ball rolling for me.Now,you've just created a visual story for all of us of you blowing your own horn.Um But we won't go down that rabbit hole.So Patrick,we're talking about,we're talking about visual storytelling.So I wanna,I wanna tee this up with you because you are uh now the resident of visual storytelling expert and Patrick,what we were talking about was um how uh visual storytelling,visuals and,and art and all that stuff gives you like music.When you see it,it's an immediate engagement or rejection.Uh But uh you have an immediate uh you know,visceral reaction,whether it's looking at a piece of art,whether it's going to film,uh watching a film or uh versus,you know,versus writing.And so the way Patrick and I met was,I was looking for uh folk tellers for the visual,what,what this universe would look like.And I had kind of an idea in my head,but I ended up,I interviewed 100 and 50 different artists and then um someone who I worked with on the,on in my professional work,uh a colleague said,hey,I got a friend I grew up with uh who does,you know,he does drawing.And I was like,oh OK.And uh so it totally undersold Patrick.But then he's like,yeah,go to his website and I looked at stuff I was like,wow,this is really,really good.And then Patrick and I,we got on the phone and that was,I believe Patrick,that was the,the rouge,the graphic novel project that we started with.So that was the whole the Red Dwarf project.And so I said,well,the way I work is you need to read my work first and come back and kind of summarize retell me the story because I caught listening for the echo.I'll know if he gets like the,the heart of what I'm getting at in,in the story that I'm telling.So he read it,he came back,he got it and uh you know,did a couple comps and it was just incredible and we've been working,I mean,it's,it's pushing 10 years now that we've been working together.Um And so,and,you know,it was Patrick's artwork that Steve saw in the investor in the investor meeting.That was like,yeah,you got something.He hadn't even read the stories.It was the artwork that sold it.Don't you think Steve or a big part of it?That was a part of it?Yeah.But I mean,you obviously have to be able to stitch together all of the artwork together to be able to tell the story.It wasn't just one image,but I'll let uh Patrick tell that.Yeah.So Patrick,so go ahead,I'm gonna,I'm gonna,you up now.So as the visual storyteller,you know,you came into our world,what is your take on uh telling stories through uh through uh images?Well,it's uh well,first of all,it's great to be a part of the group.I love,uh I love being uh on,on this team because uh I think everybody's really motivated to uh to tell good stories and to create a positive entertainment,you know,things that are uh gonna make a difference.So,you know,just to start off,I love,love being a part of all that.Um We,yeah,we do.Uh Thanks uh as for myself,you know,my earliest professional artistic work was in uh what they used to call edutainment.So I've always been,uh,a big,uh,proponent of,uh,you know,stuff that,uh,educates entertains.Uh,it puts good stuff out into the world and,and it's,and it's not just decoration,it's not just entertainment but it's something that,that's positive on several levels.And I think that's probably something that I really,uh,attached on to quickly,you know,working with JB and reading that first,uh,Rouge book that I did was Patrick a lot,a lot of history and a lot of uh uh uh a lot of how people interact with their history and how that all works together.Absolutely.Your background is fascinating to me.So,I don't know.A lot of people don't know this but you have a background in music and you did a lot with uh computers and computer program,didn't you?I have a very circuitous route that got me to worry.Yeah.What is,so,what's that journey?Well,how did you get to the point where now you're artist extraordinaire?Uh uh Well,thanks.Well,let I,I started uh when I was,uh you know,a kid,uh I had lots of different interests.Uh Basically everything except mathematics.That was my one,but I'm still not very good at.So don't ask me to work out the tip.Um But uh when I got to college,you know,I was still doing music.I was in,you know,bands and I did a lot of,uh you know,at that age,I was uh being hired by uh recording studios just as a pickup artist,you know,to do commercials and things like that.So I was keeping my hand in music,but I was an art major and uh I didn't really understand at that point,the difference between the fine arts and illustration and what I didn't really know was I was far more cut out to do illustration than,than why is that?Well,it's a whole different world in,in illustration,you're telling a story,which as it turned out is,is really something very important to me and the fine arts especially then I think it may have changed.Now,the fine arts was really only uh geared towards explaining your concept.You know,you,you do something meaningless,you know,decorating a canvas and your job as the artist was to sort of justify what you'd done and sell it to a gallery based on that.Uh And I,I quickly became really disenchanted with that entire world and,you know,that I took some good classes,a lot of life drawing and,and things like that.But I,I kind of learned it wasn't what you were drawing,it was why you were drawing it.And that didn't,didn't sit well with me.I just,I wanted to do pictures that,that told a story.And so I dropped out of that program and became a music major for my next couple of years and,you know,learned a lot of uh uh uh learned,I learned a lot about different uh musical techniques.A lot about uh writing music that I hadn't known.So it was nice to get in,you know,get,get an advanced education in that.But as it turned out,as soon as I left college,uh I took a job where they were putting a computer system in,this was back in the eighties,the early days of computing.And,uh,I kind of my way into the computer department and just taught myself how to program.And next thing I knew I had a 10 year career as a computer programmer.I ended up working for a British telecom and,uh,Chevron,actually,my last big job was,uh,Chevron when they were doing their Y2K conversion.Uh,so,uh,that was the early,early,uh,mid nineties,two K.Yeah,the world was gonna shut down,wasn't it?Well,it was,except the companies all knew that it was going to happen.So everybody,like shoring was pouring huge money into reprogramming their systems.And,uh,you know,it was a case of,uh,the news media kind of latched on to the early,oh,my God,something horrible could happen.And the companies were way ahead of them.Yeah,we got this cover.So Y2K rolled around and the companies all said,yeah,you see we did it.So you,so from there,you continued to progress into you clearly,you,you moved into the visual arts and like what you talked about illustration because you were driven by storytelling.Absolutely.And,and by then,uh we're,we're talking about the late nineties or so,I,uh I said,well,I really want to get into uh art.I,I'm,you know,I've done everything I can with programming,kind of tired of it.And I realized that the best way to leverage that because I'd been uh sort of teaching myself lots of uh different art techniques on my own.And then,uh when uh computer art started becoming a big thing,you know,I got myself a Mac and I learned how to do that.And I realized,well,I kind of knew all my contemporaries just getting into uh art,you know,out of college are all 10 years younger than me.And so I need something to uh give me a leg up.And I realized,well,it's the fact that I know how to talk to programmers and I know how to be a liaison.And pretty quickly I jumped into uh computer art.But uh within a year I was doing art directing because that was my,you know,value that I had II,I could do art and I could do programming and so I could be a liaison between those things.So art directing in the multimedia field was really,uh,cut out for me.So we did,uh,you know,lots of those,uh,educational games that were big back then,um,on CD ROM.And,uh,yeah,those were the days.Have,have you always been able to draw though?Like,I mean,you,you draw so,so easily,I mean,uh,the,the detail,I mean,have you always had that natural ability to be able to draw?I,I'd say I've,uh,I've always had the natural,um,willingness to draw because I,I'm sort of of the opinion that there's like two levels of talent.There's the one level of talent,which is what I have,which is just the willingness to try and do it over and over to practice and practice and enjoy the process.Because if you don't enjoy that process,you'll never have the quote talent.You know,you'll draw a couple of things and say that's ok and,you know,you'll go on to something else,but if you really like it,you'll really work hard at it and then you'll have that level of talent.Now,the other level is genius,which I don't have and very few people have,I don't know about that.There are people who,you know,they can think in ways that the rest of us can't.And that's what I'd qualify as genius.It's a good,that's a good point because the way that I see that you do things I think that you are a genius by the way.Um And the reason being is because uh from a spatial relations perspective,you have that down.I mean,when you draw something,it is perspective,I mean,everything comes to focal point and everything logically makes sense.And me with my engineering,left-handed engineering brain on when I see what you do like,you know,just like when we did,you know flex man,um it all made sense to me like,and there's a very few artists and people that I worked through,worked with uh throughout the years that that do what you do.So Patrick,this is Curt.It's an interesting journey you've had that you started off as an art major jump tracks over to music,got into technology and then you got back into what your heart made,what made your heart sing,right?They're drawing the art and what you applied technology to you,everything along your journey and watching it,you know,you hear this,I'm sure you're very familiar with it.The starving artist,you know,comment at what point did you realize you could start making a living by doing this?Well,I,I,I've always um been the sort of person who and,and for good or bad.I,I would say there's a lot of people who would,who would look at this as a bad thing.I always have thought of uh making a living at something as being sort of the,the ultimate uh uh proof that you're doing well.And maybe that's another reason I wasn't cut out for the fine arts community.Um So when I decided to jump from doing programming to doing art,you know,I put together a plan,I said,you know,I,I went to artists that I knew who were making a living at it.Uh 11 wonderful woman in particular who was at uh uh bun doing a lot of their stuff like uh thief.Uh What is that?Uh,the uh,oh the,the thief that jumps around,bro.I'm not familiar with,bro.Oh,got it.Ok.Anyway,and she did,she did Carmen San Diego.She did a lot of things like that and she was working on computer art and so I,I kind of went to her as a,as a,uh you know,mentor and got a lot of ideas about how the industry worked and,uh,you know,started dipping my toe in and there was actually about six months where I was working my computer job all day and then,uh doing art all night uh on paid jobs.Uh because,uh I believe that when you uh get a job with a real deadline and uh you know,payment and people need you to do it,it's going to focus your attention a lot more.And so as far as being a,being a starving artist,I say,well,if you're a starving artist,you're probably just kind of wandering around doing whatever you feel like.And you're not gonna get a lot better quickly.But if you get a job with a deadline,you're going to have to do it or starve and it really focuses your attention when you know,your,your rent money is coming from it.And so,uh I had that plan and,you know,within,within a year,I was doing art uh full time and haven't looked back since what,what got you into comics and comic books.Well,that,that is probably my,the money as a,as a kid.I just loved comics.Uh And my earliest art,you know,gods were all in the comics field,artists doing comics.And uh no,that's always been a uh you know,a boil on my neck ready to pop.Oh Thanks for that visual visual storytelling.Hold on a second.Yeah.There you go.We just got,what's your favorite comic?What was the one that really took you over the edge early on?You said you've always been a fan?Gosh,uh uh I was uh reading comics uh and collecting them and I ran across this artist from the sixties uh Jim Strano.And uh he was just a really uh experimental artist who brought a lot of the uh the pop art and art movements into his uh comics art and his storytelling was dynamic.And uh I just started,you know,going back and collecting all of his books and then seeing what he was doing uh in the seventies and eighties,which was uh he had moved more into uh illustration,book cover illustration.He had a,a magazine called Media Scene and I just got into everything he did.So I'd have to say he was probably my,my main biggest inspiration.So anyone who's interested should look up Jim Strano quite a style.So Patrick,which,which comics did he draw for.He uh had a kind of a mercurial career.He bounced around over the course of uh like five or six years at Marvel uh doing whatever he felt like.And he really only did about 30 less than 40 actual individual issues of things.But what he started out uh doing was uh he uh took over very early on the Nick Fury Agent of Shield strip.Uh He did that book for uh just a maybe a couple of years.That was his earliest thing and he really set the style for all of Marvel's uh you know,uh super spy stuff.And then he,and then he jumped to uh Captain America.He did only three issues of Captain America,but he basically redefined the character at that point.And then he started doing just a little of this and a little of that.Marvel had a horror magazine.He did one short story and that,that is still thought of as,as like a,a benchmark in,in horror comics uh design.And he did a love story comic where he did it all with this pop art style that no one had ever thought to use in comics.And he would just bounce around and uh it was a short but amazing career in comics.So,so Patrick,so this is,this is a good segue because one of the things that we've talked about in bits and pieces and,and you've talked about is,is sort of that balance between following your,your creativity and your passion and then the process and,and the business of it all.And uh you had,you know,you had said this,um you know,you were passionate about comics and,and so you,and you wanted to be telling stories and that's what kind of like moved your art,what I've always been interested in your ability to take,to channel that creativity into uh a process where you can,you can create uh standard outputs uh in a timeline,you know,on a,on a deadline,on a budget.Uh Can you talk a little bit about your process?Because I've always been fascinated with how you,you know,how you end up working with us with what we give you.Well,the uh well,the other side of,of uh what I've uh been doing is we've talked about the multimedia and the comics.I've also always just uh been fascinated with illustrations,you know,the standalone illustrations that tell a story with one picture and,and that's,that's most of what I've really been doing other than our first uh big graphic novel,I've been doing a lot of uh illustrations for folk tellers,uh you know,the covers uh and the interior illustrations.And as far as the process for that goes,it's,um in,in some ways it has to do with being a reader my whole life,you know,sort of a voracious reader.And I've always uh loved the storytelling uh world and when it comes to drawing,uh as I've said,my,my passion is,is telling that story.So the very first thing I always do is I'll try to zero in on part of the story that is,that is visual and,and doesn't just give an illustration like a character standing there and looking cool or an interesting,you know,creature or background or something.I always try to give the picture a feeling that there was story before it and there's going to be story after it and my action is leading from what happened before to what's going to happen next.Well,that's how do you do that?I mean,that's,that's amazing thought.But how do you do that visually?What do you,I,I can say just by,you know,looking at all that,the artwork that he's made for us over the years,all of his artwork is dynamic,isn't it?But how do you,how do you get that feeling?Like you just described Patrick where there's a story before and there's a story after from what you see.Well,as Steve mentions,the dynamics is,is a big part of it.If you,if you give your picture a sense of uh motion and even though it's standing still,you can give it a sense of kinetics by how you keep the,the lines and,and how people are balanced or unbalanced in the picture and how the composition is balanced or unbalanced.You can have a very formalistic composition that's uh that looks like it's real stable,so to speak.Uh or you can have an unbalanced composition that looks like it's falling off the page and going somewhere.And so visually,you like to do that.But also with,with storytelling comes the idea that you want to put pieces of,of the world that you're in,of the story that you're telling,you know,people are interacting with each other,they're not standing there.They're uh they look like they could be talking to each other about something or the world that you're in.Uh you know,be it a,you know,say you're on a mountainside or you're in a swamp or you're somewhere else.The world should look like you as the viewer could walk into it and say,oh,there's something around the corner there,I wonder what it is and the characters are looking over there.And so as the viewer,you wanna know what are those characters looking at?Well,it's interesting Patrick,because I remember as a kid growing up looking at Spiderman comics and Spiderman never looked like he was standing still,right?He,he looked like he was always moving,moving one way or another,right?Something was always,always moving.Yeah,Marvel always had that uh what a very uh huge kinetic emotion going on.Even if you're just standing there,you're standing with drama.What did you do for Marvel,by the way,I uh worked in their uh marketing department.I was a freelancer and I was mainly working on the Marvel Style guide.So it was uh sort of uh highly rendered uh individual pictures of,of various characters,you know,like I did a whole bunch of thor but then I did a lot of uh you know,various bad guys and good guys,uh a few silver surfer,you know,things like that.And that was used in the Marvel Style guide,which was what they would give to people who were uh uh licensing the Marvel characters.And so those books they got say you have to go by this official version of the character.Uh Then I also did some other point of sale marketing things.I i it's been many years,there was a time where,where this was like a cultural thing I could mention and,and everybody of a certain age would go.Oh,I remember that was,uh,in Target.They had,uh,when the Hulk movie,the second Hulk movie came out where that was 2008 or nine.they had these,uh,footprints on the floor.They were like big stickers that,that Target would put on the floor,that sort of lead to the toy section and they were the Hulks feet.Uh That's cool,tearing up the floor.I did those as a lot of people of a certain age,I can say that they go,I remember that I was just gonna say about my size.Yeah.So yeah,a lot of uh point of sale things.Uh Special,special projects.Yeah,that kind of thing.So I was on contract with them for quite a while.Awesome.Very cool.Well,Patrick,we appreciate your time today.Um Just before we,before we let you go.Um I mean,and by the way,what you said in this uh in this chat was it's gold.I mean,for,for visual story,we really sell,just leave like leave the listeners with uh it's a different point of view.I mean,what you what you shared,it's a different point of view to look at the world through a visual storytelling lens.So for the people that are listening,like,what are some best practices?Whether you're a whether you're an artist or not.Um What's some ways that,uh you know,you could,you could adjust your lens to look at uh stories in a more visual way.Hm.How about that?How about that?Yeah.Don't,don't try to stump the guest again.No.See Kurt would give him a lay up.You know,that's the team.I have a,I know he can answer it.Go ahead.Uh I,I think uh I think a big part of it if people want to um do visuals to go along with stories the way I do.Um It,it,it doesn't exactly answer your question,but I think it's very important as a,as an aspect of that uh is to read,read the story,imagine what's happening and then allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of,allow yourself to be creative and allow yourself to think of stupid things,allow yourself to do things that you wouldn't normally think of.Uh sketch a lot,do a lot of little tiny drawings,never spend too long on any one thing and come up with lots of different ideas and allow yourself to fail along the way uh and keep,uh you know,keep an open mind that don't ever stop yourself before.You've tried it.How about that?Yeah.That's awesome.That's sage advice.So where can people see your work?Of course,they can go to uh folk Tillers Studios dot com or folk tillers dot com and see Patrick's work.But where can they see like the,the full depth and breadth of,of your art?I've,I've got a,uh,a website that has a number of pieces on it and I probably ought to update it more often says everybody with a website.Uh it's uh uh mega flow graphics dot com,megaflow graphics dot com.And it's got a lot of my work there.It's got uh comics work,uh book illustration work uh covers and it's even got a little section with some of my multimedia.Excellent.Well,again,Patrick,thanks for being on and uh we appreciate everything that you do and uh we're so happy that you're part of the folk teller family.Well,thanks guys.And uh this was great to be a part of,I've been listening to your podcast since it started and it's been a lot of great entertainment.So you guys are or something.All right,we'll talk to you soon.All right,thanks Patrick.Nice to meet you.Take care,take care,Patrick.OK,bye bye.Cheers.All right.So,uh again,you know,Patrick,he said he wasn't,uh I guess any genius never calls himself a genius.It has to be put upon him.Yeah,talented,very talented.So if you get a chance,check out his work,I mean,if you look at our stuff,you'll see it.But uh mega flow graphics dot com but anyway,so this got me thinking there's a term called visual literacy.There's a really cool video out there.Uh Martin Scorsese did about uh the necessity for visual literacy and he gives a really good description of it.You can,if you Google Martin Scorsese visual literacy,you'll find it.It's I think it's like a seven or eight minute video,but he talks about um it's important to understand uh the visual medium.And I really think in modern storytelling,you absolutely have to.Uh because people are reading,I think people are not reading less,but they're reading differently,they're reading in smaller chunks and what you're seeing like,like,well,look at a magazine,it's more pictures and text now,uh websites,more pictures than text.It's like minimize the text,maximize the visual and the imagery.And that's kind of like,you know,modern,you know,modern storytelling is that it is that the problem the problem with that is,is uh images don't index text into search engines.So you can't find anything if your whole entire website is just based on images.So from a digital perspective,that's not a good action plan.You have to,you really have to have a blend between the text and the story for you to be able to do well on the web and be successful.That's great insight from the tech guy.It really is.So from the OK.And that is,but from the storytelling side.What's the right balance?Yeah.For me,it's,it's like,I think we,our brains are being constantly rewired,right?If you look at over the decades,over the centuries,how visual has become even more important in the last 2030 years,we're,I mean,we're getting rewired.My,our,I,I truly believe our brains are being rewired by the use of technology and things that we're doing now that we're becoming more visually uh a astute that,that visual is our.Before in education,there used to be different types of learning,right?You're an auditory learner,you had a visual learner,you had somebody who was kinesthetic,right?They have to,I I,in my opinion,I see a shift more and more to visual that people are visual that they've learned through visual.And so that's an important part of the storytelling because without that,um you know,like you said,people are reading differently now.And I think in,in my opinion,they're reading more visually as a result.Look at Power Point for an example,like when they invented powerpoint,it was supposed to be very visual and there's only supposed to be a small amount of text,but like one point that Power point,not power points.And so what ended up happening is,you know,a lot of industry,they,you know,they,they started to,to use it like it was a book and I've said to those death by powerpoint presentations.But that's a prime example of,of,you know,visual literacy.That's,that's a really good example.In fact,I've told clients,uh powerpoint is not a prompter,right?That's a good way to put it.I mean,like,put it all in perspective and there's like uh that 10,2030 rule for Power Point,it's supposed to be,I'm gonna probably get this wrong,but it's supposed to be no more than 10 slidess,no more than uh 20 point font.And the 30 is uh like no more than 30 years old,30 years old.But that it's basically keep it short,keep it short and sweet and highly visual.And Steve this got me thinking about when we do Hollywood pitch decks because this is to me visual storytelling and what it means in the modern world is the visuals are the gateway to a deeper experience and I'll explain that.So a good example is these pitch decks we have to put together the initial pitch check.I mean,we're like,you're consolidating,it's very few words,but it's highly visual and it's dynamic visuals because you're trying to get people that don't know.Yeah,I mean,they have the attention span of a nat.So it's like,OK,this is bright and pretty and there's movement and,and there's uh there's a little blurb.So I know what's going on and the whole idea of the pitch deck is all right to get them to say,yeah,let me see more.Let me see the script or let me see the books and then they'll go into the text.They wanna go deeper,but it has to tell the story.It does.That's the challenge.It's like I,I just read um it was the description of what they said.Uh The guy was saying uh he was a famous poet and I can't think of it.It was like uh a great poem is maximum impact in minimum space.And I think that's what visuals do for you.Well,as an example,when I do keynote presentations,I,I use powerpoint or different formats,but a lot of visuals,I I'd say literally 85 to 90% of my presentation from the Power Point side is visual rules every once in a while,a few words,some statistics,uh some video as well.But for that reason,right,people are looking to consume in different ways as a result and,and you know,the storytelling can come verbally in my case.And I,but,but like to your point,Joseph,that,that people are reading differently,I guess in your opinion,what are the different ways that people are reading this as far as that literacy,that storytelling,visual literacy?What is it?Well,I think like,OK,so I go back to,you know,magazines and periodicals.Um the articles are shorter there,there's more,there's more pictures.In fact,when you hear people talk about actually reading a novel or reading a book or reading for pleasure.It's like,uh,they have to set the time aside and it's like,uh,you know,I want my,my coffee and my blanket and it's,it's like a comfort thing and it's like something like that.They have to set aside where before you had to,you were reading a lot just to get through your day,whether it was your business or whatever.Um So,you know,I think that's the technology definitely like the reading on the screen and that's changed everything.So now you've really got to consolidate,like Steve said,you still have to tell the story.Um But now you have to,it has to be more highly visual and less and less text.Um And there's more graphic novels now too,right?Yeah,that's another thing.Yeah.So wrapping all this up,I mean,we again,we could,we could just go on forever,but a visual storytelling.What are,what are we walking away with?I mean,what,what do people need to be sensitive or looking out for?Yeah,right off the bat.I know first and foremost is that there has to,it's best to have a visual attached to the narrative.In other words,if I have a narrative,it's best to attach some type of visual to that.Uh you know,Patrick talked about his gift of,of drawing and what he does with graphics,whether it be from the computer or with his hand.Um That,that's an important part of that story is seeing that visual,like you said,um the,it's amazing that he talks about the story that comes before that visual and afterwards,by looking at that visual,that's great,Steve.What about you?I think the future is gonna be very interesting in visual storytelling because we,we did a podcast on A I and A I is gonna have a huge impact on,on what happens in the future,you know,like um applications like mid journey and um you know,and uh GP T four,you know,and the,and the combination of those,those technologies together,I mean,things are gonna change guys.Yeah,quickly.For,for me it's the balance between the visual and the text of the narrative,the narrative.So um and,and how you got to look at it every iteration because it,whoever your audience is and whatever you're trying to do,you're gonna have to strike that balance.So,um all right guys.Another good one.Thanks for Patrick.Oh Yeah,cool.Yeah.Um So everyone check out mega flow graphics dot com if you want to see Patrick stuff.And uh thanks for letting us be in your ears.
 

I Don’t Think We’re in Kansas Anymore: The Deepening of Immersive Storytelling

What makes for an interesting interactive story? How complex must the story be? Why some interactive stories (like in gaming) flop? Why is the user experience so important?
Our guest this week is Ronda Thomas from Alozari.
"At Alozari we seek to return that connection through a collaboration of seasoned professionals in events, entertainment, and technology. We’ve been weaving the real and the virtual worlds together for decades, always at the forefront of technology and engagement."
 
Folktellers Universe
 
#Storytelling
#StoriesToBeShared
#FolkTellers
#Alozari
#RondaThomas
#InteractiveStories
 
All right,this is week 10.I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.The deepening of interactive storytelling today,we're talking about interactive storytelling,immersive storytelling.And what does this all mean in this,in this modern age?And so guys,I wanna begin with a,a quote from a video game.What is a man?But the sum of his memories,we are the stories we live and the tales that we tell ourselves.This is from uh Clay Kasick of in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.If you've ever played Assassin's Creed,actually,I am not a big video game person,but I love some of the stories that they tell my kids play these deep um interactive games like Assassin's Creed.And,uh that's the only one I can think of top of my mind.But there's actually a story to those.Oh my gosh.Yeah.And they're great.I mean,they're by,they're so immersive and they're so layered.Uh,you have full character development stuff.We need to introduce our,uh compadres here.Uh We've got the elusive,elusive,you keep getting up to go to the back.Yeah,that's,that was a stretching and the uh incredulous.I have no idea what that word means.Look that one up,look it up.You are often incredulous.OK.Maybe not today because you,you were smiling.So Stephen Sadler,Stephen Sadler is here.All right guys.So uh I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.We're talking about the,the deepening of interactive storytelling.This is a,a kind of a mysterious one.Not um it's not mainstream.No,this is not mainstream.And so,you know,are or is it well?OK,let me begin with this.Let me begin with this.So here's,here's a quote about interactive storytelling in our highly mediated technology driven world.We are all looking for meaningful ways to connect.This has constantly inspired me to create environments full of lively immersive experiential elements specifically crafted to foster human connection.And this is uh David Rockwell from uh he's a,he's a game developer,but we're talking about game more than just games.We're just,I mean,this is kind of a can be a uh a melange of different interactive,what do you guys think about interactive storytelling?Like again,we'll do our,our gut check before we bring our Well.Yeah.And,and for me,when I hear this and when I,I understand what it's about,it's,it's just part of that trans media,right?It's part of that trans media approach for telling a story.You can have a film,you could have a TV,you could have uh a TV show,you could have a book and you can have it in a game or,or some type of um platform like this where the stories are being told.And this is,this is something new to me.Um And it's interesting because it is just another platform,but you have people that really enjoy this platform to tell their story,to live their story.And what,what is,what is interactive storytelling?Is it just a video game or do we live in it?00,this,this smells like a rabbit hole to me.This is all right,Steve Lay,lay down that.What's,well,there was an interesting project that um Carnegie Mellon.Um uh A few guys from Carnegie Mellon created.Uh I think they stopped the program in 2002.And it's funny because I didn't know that you were gonna title this podcast uh with Kansas.But the project was called the Oz Project,which is kind of strange.Yeah,but the way that the,the uh the Oz project works,I mean,it's probably what the,the framework that they've actually used for a lot of video gaming since then.And I know some of the guys that worked on that project actually got into A I.Um but there's an interesting component to it all is one,you have an interactor.OK.So if I'm a part of this interactive storytelling system,so imagine it's a piece of technology,right?Um I'm interfacing as the interactor.Uh Then there's characters that are controlled by something called a drama manager.OK.Is this something they're building?Is this they built this?OK.So this is a piece of technology,correct?Keep going.And this drama ma manager actually was responsible for moving the characters around to make sure that you are having an interactive experience within this,you know,this environment,this physical environment,which is not a physical environment,it looks like one,but it's a,you know,a 3d virtual environment.Um but it could have multiple different endings.So maybe there's 10 or 15 different programmed endings,you know,back then because back then probably they weren't using A I with you,I should say machine learning with machine learning,you could probably have,you know,limitless number of endings relative to,you know,what the characters are doing and what you're doing relative to interacting with the characters.Well,when you look at the way that that system is all laid out,is that not the world that we actually live in,is there not a master drama manager which is controlling the characters?Maybe I'm the inter actor and you are a character.You,you already were a I Joseph that I still am.This is,this is the,this is you,you,you might be a character in my story and vice versa.I'm a character,character many times So who is this big drama manager?Yeah.Well,it's interesting because I,I remember in one of our earlier episodes,you kept avoiding the A I language.It was like this is mechanical learning,right?This machine learning machine learning,right?And so same thing with this that this is a machine technology that tells a story.But this is something I didn't know that these,these games,if you look at that aspect only they are telling a story and you're living that story during that game.Yeah.So,so what you guys are touching on and this is becoming more and more prevalent in the development world,whether it's whether it's development of technology,whether it's um it's anything tied to story is story world development.And we've touched on this a little bit,but this concept of being able to build out an entire world.And previously,you know,you did this,you know,you could do it through books or you did it through a game and like,and now it's like,and it's what we've said that's really trans media.If you're doing it right,it's really story world building.And as Steve has said,it's like building a platform where it though there will be multiple outfit uh outlets and outputs.But that it's really all about the story and the multiple layers,wouldn't it be great if we can get an expert on our show to talk about this?But if we could do that.Yeah.In fact,uh,so Rhonda Thomas works for a company called Azari and we're gonna have her on and,uh,she'll,she'll be able to,to enlighten us a little bit before she comes on.I,I'll forget this.Thought.There is a,a piece of technology called conductor and it's spelled weird.I have to look it up.But,um,there's the,uh,Robert Prat.So Robert Prat and Jeff Gomez are the two like gurus of story World Building.So what Robert Prat did years ago um he built this engine,this like Steve you were talking about uh the Oz project.It was um it was a tool where you could basically build out your trans media story.It was called conductor where you were like the conductor of a symphony and you had full control of the story and then what the outputs were gonna be and you,you would stage it.Um it never took off because it was too complex.You had to be an expert developer.But what he does now he took the same technology and he's using it for crisis simulation.He's out,he's in London and I talked to him a couple of times.Super,super smart,super nice guy.But um now he does these crisis scenarios and and uh they're live scenarios but it's all managed with this,with this conductor system.So it's like the drama manager.It is he is the drama manager,the conductor.Like that was the analogy he used was the conductor of the orchestra.And you decide what piece you're gonna play,especially the drama,right?I mean,it's,it's we're talking drama.Well,welcome.Uh Rhonda.Thomas.Rhonda is our good friend from a Azari and I'll let her describe uh the,the crazy,cool things that Azari is doing.But Rhoda,you're here with uh Kurt David and Stephen Sadler and here's truly.Hi,Rhonda.How are you?I'm good,good.Nice to meet you.Good to hear you.Like,which part of the world are you in?So,I'm in Park City,Utah.I'm in the mountains at about 7000 ft.Is it still snowing?No,thank heavens.We had snow into June this year.I know.Oh my God,it's beautiful.Absolutely beautiful.Awesome.Well,Rhoda,thanks for,thanks for being on with us.We're talking about uh interactive storytelling and we're kind of going deep.This is kind of a mix of uh technology and story world building.And um it's right in your wheelhouse.So,you know,you've started this company,uh a Azari and it's,you know,I think it falls into the metaverse but it falls into a lot of different things.What is a Azari?What are you,what are you trying to do with um with your technology and with your interactive storytelling?Sure,thanks.So it goes back to the name of the company.So the the name of the company is a,a made up word Alo Zari.And we picked it because Zari is the golden thread that weaves through cloth,ancient cloth and Allo is hello in most many languages.So we looked at communication or storytelling as the golden thread that weaves through experience for people.And we wanted to really tie people together and give them shared experience.I've been working in technology for a very long time longer than I care to admit.And I think that technology while it's allowed us to communicate,it's all,it's also separated us as community.It's we each,you know,if you look at the algorithms for Facebook or,or Twitter or tiktok,they all,they go to these small,small,small interests and it splits you apart from the main whole.And so what we've been trying to do with a Azari,a Azari is a what we call curated live events in the metaverse.So it's available on any browser,it's avatar based.So you come in as an avatar,you can look like yourself or anybody you want and you can talk to people just like you would in the real world and you can share experiences which I think the problem with Zoom or Webex as wonderful as they are.And as much as they connected us during the pandemic,it's really a platform for one to many or 1 to 1,but it's not many to many.You can't walk up to somebody in a zoom meeting and start your own conversation.But in a Azari you can.So coming from the live event world and the technology world,our idea is to facilitate that shared experience that builds community and builds culture and allows companies to really reach and engage their customers by amplifying their brand.And that,so that,that's kind of what we do.You don't need a headset,it's not VR you can access it on your phone or your tablet or your computer and we think it's gonna be the new,probably one of the most powerful mediums we can have for storytelling.Yeah.Why do you,why do you think that,I mean,how does this differ from a chat room or way back when,when they tried to launch like second life and,and things like that?How,how do you think this is gonna differ?So I think the difference from a chat room is you actually have a physical presence and you move through an environment and then Azari,we created a photorealistic environment.So it looks like what you're used to experiencing in the world.And it's very interesting as we were building it and we would have our avatars running around or my business partner has their avatar doing jumping jacks,you sort of feel like you're actually doing it.So you get a real sense of presence that you don't have in a chat,but it differs from second life and that it's,the technology has really come a long way,you feel like you're there and it looks like you're there.And in fact,technology is to the point where we could even put you in as a hologram into the environment as exactly yourself and track your actual movement.So I think it's where I think of it kind of like the next phase of the internet where it's not flat and it's not just user generated content,but the entire thing is driven by the user.So I think your,your platform of choice to build this on was uh was the Unreal engine,correct?Right.So we're using gaming technology.Uh-huh and bringing it to bringing it to a broader audience because it doesn't require a download.So for example,probably the one of the most successful games is Fortnite,which is also built on an Unreal engine,that's a 90 plus gigabyte download.So if you are,um if you want to come in for a short meeting or a short event and you're in a,in a corporation,they're not gonna let you download 90 gigabytes.And this doesn't require you to download anything and you also need a really powerful computer to download something like Fortnite,right?You can't play Fortnite on your phone,but all of the heavy lifting for Azari is done in the cloud.So you don't have to have,you don't have to have a huge bandwidth,you don't have to have a huge computer.So if you're in a school in Kenya and you have a tablet,you have enough bandwidth and enough power to access a Azari.Wow.Yeah,actually some of the biggest flops that have happened in the history of gaming actually is where uh the developers actually designed beyond the limitations of the console.So it's uh it's good to hear that.That,that's,that's the uh the path that you,that you guys are taking.Yeah,it sounds like you're lowering the barrier to entry because that's usually the biggest thing is if you haven't designed the lowest common denominator,you're not gonna get uh you're not gonna get usage.Well,Ron,I'm curious,um you alluded to it shortly,but what are some of the implications for this?So when we say curated live events,my background is out of taking technology into sports and arts and entertainment.So sponsors for the Olympics or professional cycling or the NFL or global music concerts,all of that kind of content can come into a Azari.And similarly,if you're thinking big conferences like Oracle Open World or Sap Sapphire or even a small local meeting,all of that can come into a Azari because what we do is we,we get rid of the physical boundaries of space.So say you have a meeting that only fits 10 people.Well,now it could fit 10,000 people.We get rid of the physical boundaries and we get rid of the distance boundaries.So the applications really are think about any shared experience that you have with someone in the real world close.You could probably have an Wow,that's amazing because it is,it can really expand the storytelling that we're talking about,right?I mean,this platform can help in that capacity.Yeah,I mean,if you wanna,if you wanna use an example,um Rhoda,the application that you guys were gonna build with folk tellers um about recreating those um those those actual theaters.If you wanna,if you wanna talk about that a little bit.Sure.Yes.So because we are photorealistic,um we can take in technology is pretty amazing nowadays and we can scan in.So the theater,so Folk tellers was gonna do a s a concert series and in a famous old theater in Canada and we were looking at,we can replicate the theater um down to the sea cushions,right?And so the people that are there at the live experience have the live experience,but the people that are in a Azari can share that experience in a theater that looks and feels identical to what the live environment is.And um so we have the ability to mix the reel and the live.And even in fact,we could put a screen in the live theater,say in the lobby where the people at the live event can talk to the people in the metaverse and vice versa.Resurrecting the past.Yeah.So,yeah.So it really,it really allows us to mix the two worlds together.Has she connected with Angus Vale from our previous The Globe Theater?I mean,literally it just,yeah,we,we uh we had Angus Vale on,he's a kiss,his financial manager and he's a,he's building building uh the Globe Theater uh out of uh shipping containers here in Detroit.So it's a virtual world.Yeah.Yeah.So we'll,we'll take,we'll take that one.Yeah,we'll take that one off line.Well,I had a question for you.Yeah.Uh So my,so here's my,my question is I'm wondering from a,not everyone gets excited because it'll be an incredible user experience.But from the people that need to launch these,you need to produce this.I mean,what level of complexity is this?If you know,it sounds like uh a similar skill set of someone who's like if you're running a campaign or you're,you're an event planner.Um Is this something that,that they would use uh to create virtual events?Sure.Yeah,it is.Most of the really difficult technology is built in the back end.And what,what you're really doing for any different event is you're just skinning it.You're creating art and,but all of the applications like talking to people or showing live video or sharing printed materials,all of those tools are already built.So from an event producer,standpoint or from an advertising campaign manager,it's really just creative art and,and the order in which you want the tools to appear.So it's really pretty simple um from that level.So I mean,this is a huge powerful storytelling tool.I mean,when,when are we gonna see it?I mean,how,how soon,how soon is a Azari like ready to uh light the fuse and and send the ship up to space?Yeah.So we are just coming out into the marketplace.I think that um we are ready,we will be in active use for the average consumer by fall and we're just finishing up some integration as some of our technology partners.One of the things we've been looking into as everyone's hearing about artificial intelligence,right?And how A I impacts storytelling and how A I impacts user experience in a live environment.So we've been working to integrate with a couple partners that will allow us to have what are called NP CS in the game world,non player characters.So you could walk up to someone at a theater and they could be the usher and they might recognize you and they could say,you know,hi,Kurt,welcome to the show.We know you always like to sit in the second row center.Follow me,right?That A I can do all of that and you can and So we're just finishing the integration for that and we'd like to get that done before we,before we go to launch with some of the live events we're playing,we can uh rent out A I Joseph for if you like to.So yeah,that Steve's my A I agent.Now see,I think as a storyteller is incredibly powerful and,you know,we've always seen that stories connect culture and they give us common ground and they give us,you know,it's myth if you go back to Joseph Campbell and,and people sitting around the fire and telling stories to each other.Um I think one of my favorites is Ira Glass said that great stories happen to those who can tell them.I think the happening part as well as the telling part is what Azari will facilitate.But on a really on a global basis.Yeah,very cool.It's around uh you know,this is Kurt,I,I do public speaking and,and keynote speaking and he used to do a lot before the world shut down and then it changed this hybrid model,right?You see this hybrid of,of in person as well as uh virtual.Uh but you know,I I still see it not 100% in person.There's still a lot of virtual platforms for doing this.Is this something that this will address,right?This is something you can still do both,correct?Yeah,you can still do both.And I think the difference between a Azari and the majority of platforms that are out there now is that rather than it just being a video that you watch,even if it's live,the difference is you can be sitting next to Steve and,and Joseph and you can be in the same room and I can lean over to you and say,hey,what do you think about that joke?He just told that's my favorite,right?And you get that interaction and the shared experience that you don't get on just the video platforms right now.Wow,what if I don't want to sit next to him though,I guess.Is that something I can for you in your own?Very own better question.Is,is,is there enough space in a Azari for Kurt to have a virtual?You can see uh he's,he's almost 7 ft,so 4 ft and 33 inches in,in AAA.He can be,he,he could experience what it's like to be a short female if he wants.Oh boy.Well,I don't know if I want to go there.But,but the the avatar is what you're talking about,right?You create the avatar avatar.And I think that's gonna be really interesting.You guys were talking about accessibility.I think the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes,literally in an environment and to walk around and experience the world as a different race or as a different sex or maybe as a non sex,identified individual,the way people react to you is gonna be different.I can't get this vision out of my head.Now,looking at your curt,if you're sitting here in a 22 or something,you don't have to worry because you won't see that.OK,so you,you got me thinking about sort of the,the whole,the whole experience.How is this experience going to differ?Like,OK,for example,a concert.So what you're saying is this could be,you could have a hybrid concert where there's still the live concert,but then there's also the virtual experience is happening live at the same time.Correct?Is that,I mean,that's,that's in the,in the offing.Um So what,what is that,what is that,you know,concert goer experience?How is that gonna differ from,you know,what they're,what they're doing now?I think it's gonna be really interesting.I mean,the,the,so the leaders in the music industry are saying that platforms like Ali Ari are going to disintermediation,the recording industry from the artist and the artist can go direct to their fan.So if you think about,so if I want to have my uh my own private club,I,I'm Justin Bieber and I want to hold a concert once a month.Um I can have that venue,it can be mine.I can perform in it and my fans from all over the world could come buy a ticket,enter as an avatar and there's several different ways that the artist can perform.The artist could perform live on video.The artist could perform as an avatar with um motion tracking um or the artists were getting to the point where the artist could perform as a hologram in the platform.So if you were at a live concert,so say,say the concert we were talking about in,in Canada,the musicians are on the stage and the audience is watching the concert while we would be most likely at that point,videoing the the live concert and feeding it into a Azari as a concert and they would be watching it.You could be watching it on a screen.Now,if we wanted to go one step further,we could put a green screen behind the artist even in,in um virtually do it and then put the artist into a Azari in 3d.So there's a lot of different ways things can happen and we could even sync musicians up from multiple different locations.So I don't know if you saw some of the ones during the pandemic where the drummers didn't play like I think was the Rolling Stones um because the sync,you couldn't sync them.Exactly.So we've been working on technology right now,we can sync up to 12 different locations.Um So they can play together.That's crazy musicians definitely need another avenue to be able to generate revenue.That's,that's a fact,especially with all the other ways that they've lost revenue.So that's a great thing that you,that you're doing.No,Steve Steve,you're hitting on something because this is gonna,this kind of technology is gonna create a whole another service industry,don't you think Rhonda just to develop?I think so?Absolutely.It's gonna,it's gonna really,it,it really allows people to have a low cost of entry to a mass audience.Um But in a way where the mass audience can be together as opposed to alone at home.And that sounds odd because you really will be at home,but you'll feel like you're not.So speaking of audience,where can our audience find out more about this,about the development of it where it's heading more information about it?We have a pretty simple website,Azari dot com.You can find the information there.And other than that,we've kept it kind of under wraps until today,until today.Until today.You can email me.You can email me,right.So that would be easy or we'll,we'll guide people to you,that's for sure.OK.There you go.All right.Well,so,but Joseph,tell me about how you see,you know,you had talked about folk teller Universe.How do you see that playing out in the 3d world?Oh,yeah,you're,I'm like way above my pay grade on,on that,I mean,just,you know,but just like,you know,and we've,we've,we've talked uh with you and Alison at,at,at length and,uh I,I just believe I,this is what I,I always go back to the story,like,and,and,you know,Steve and I have been proponents of trans media for,for years and,and to me,this is a,this is a powerful trans media storytelling engine.And,you know,one of the things that,uh you know,we've,we've talked about so,you know,for,for folk tellers,our audience,it's family entertainment,but like the books are,are like middle grade fantasy fiction.And I,I've said this before is I do not have and we do not have direct access to our primary audience.Like we don't have direct access to kids.We,we have direct access to the parents and teachers and librarians and um you know,they invite us uh into,you know,to speak to the kids,but something like this,like what you said,you know,having direct access to your audience,uh We currently don't have that today and that would be pretty cool if we could be um you know,interacting as storytellers with our primary audience uh in a,in a,in a,in a safe uh appropriate way.And I,I go ahead,I was gonna say,I don't know if you've been to London to actually see the sets,the Warner Brothers sets for Harry Potter.You have.Yeah.It,it's imagine that done in a Azari.Yeah.And,and I can imagine a,a virtual folk teller's story being done like that.So,you know how they,like,they've captured all the sets and they,they walk you through the big hall and then you go through all the sets like a four hour experience.I mean,there's no reason that,you know,with the technology that you're doing,you know,that that can't be done,you know,virtually.And I think that um that would be an amazing path for folk tellers and all of the beautiful stories that Joseph has written over the years.Yeah,I think it's really interesting because there will always be,there will always be a place for the Harry Potter sets in London and that experience in person.But think how many people will never be able to get there.Right.Right.Right.And if you could take that and create it in a virtual world and expand the accessibility to,you know,hundreds of thousands more people to really have that.And,you know,you look at the impact that Harry Potter stories had on culture and how,I don't know if you guys remember when the books would come out and they would have sleepovers at book midnight release parties,book sellers,little,little midnight release parties.Right.And imagine you can expand that.I,I like to really just think about it in terms of bringing amazing experiences.I mean,I've been really lucky in my business that I've been,you know,to the Olympics and I've been to amazing concert from backstage and I've been to the top of Alto for the Tour de France or all for work and all for brands.But so few of us ever get to those places and how exciting it would be to open all that up.Agreed.Ok,for people to experience.Yeah.So,so in closing Rhonda,if you were to take this Zari thread and pull it all the way through,where,where would,where would we be ending up?Where would we,what path would we be the golden thread?That is,yeah,I think the path of the golden thread would lead us to a more engaged and cohesive society because I think what's happened with technology is we're all,you know,you think back to Walter Cronkite,right?And how everybody got mainly the same news and it's not that differing views are bad,but it's allowed us to get more and more and more siloed and have less and less in common as a people worldwide.And I hope that this platform can be used to make some bridges across culture and follow that storytelling thread back to the cultural engagement that I think we all used to have.Yeah.Well said,yeah,well said.Amen to that.Well,Rhonda,thank you so much uh for,for being on.Um We really appreciate it and um,well,now the cat's out of the bag and you've,you've shared the ari secret.So uh we'll be sharing it,we'll be sharing it as well.But um any,any parting words before we let you go.No,just thank you so much for really letting me engage in this and I think that,you know,storytelling is what we need more of.I really do.So thank you so much for your time and for sharing this with me.Thank you.And we'll talk to you soon.Ok.All right.Take care guys.Thanks.Bye bye.Bye,bye.Wow,she is right.That's what I keep thinking in my mind right now.Just wow,with the potential of this.Yeah.And that whole conversation,I mean,clearly,I,I mean,I love storytellers that have a vision.I mean,Rhonda was so articulate and,and I mean,we had talked about how eventually you gotta strip your story down to.And she said,basically,this is an opportunity to bring people in to bring people back together.We didn't ask it,how,how long has she been working on this?Um They said they started when we started talking to them.It was,they started during COVID.So that's three or four years.But she's been involved in a lot of other interactive storytelling projects through huge brands.So she's been as she said she's been in tech longer than she wants to remember.But uh this is different.She's got um she's really defined what her purpose is.And um so yeah,what blows me away is that,that the,the use of technology to do it?I mean,when,when she's talking holograms and things like that and this technology,like you're sitting next to somebody and they're there and the entertainer and we have this Ava,I mean,just I'm trying to visualize it,right as well of how this all works and,and,but it's,it's exciting to see because it's just another media to tell a story.And I'll add to that and say that,I think this is one way where you can humanize technology and that's kind of what they're trying to do.What's funny is so Rhonda's background is intact,but she's also uh for years and years has helped run the um the folk festival.What's the big one in the Newport,the Newport Folk Festival,which is like the most famous music festival.That's what like she's done a lot of the live.So that,that,that very uh organic,you know,very human.Yeah.Yeah.And then,and you know,to,to bring that in with the technology is absolutely brilliant.It's pretty cool.And,and to me like that,I mean,that's what it's kind of like you're looking at that North star of interactive storytelling.I mean,you,you Steve you brought up the,the Oz project.How did that?So how did that end up?Like,what,where did that?Why did they stop?Well,I think what happened is that they all broke into different pieces.Like some guys went into A I,some went into VR they just became different names right?Under different pieces of technology.But uh I think it was 2002,I think I said that before that,that was that when they actually finished as their,they called it their motley crew of uh of developers,but uh some brilliant,brilliant guys that,you know,that,that came up with,with,with that solution and that platform.Um but just as they're still trying to integrate A I into a Azari,I mean,still these pieces,they're not all put together.I mean,we live in very,very interesting times where,you know,there's still not a main platform where you can go to.And one of the biggest problems is,is you don't want to have a flop,you know,many video games that have had flops is where,you know,they've taken on too much and they've tried to build the uh the application beyond the console uh capabilities or beyond the graphics card or beyond the process or whatever.And I think where Azari will be successful as we spoke,when we were speaking to her,she's not,they're not doing that.They're trying to,you know,as you said,get under the lowest common denominator of,make sure that the technology will work on any single device.Um And if holograms come in the future and they work,you know,and,and these new headsets,maybe they're more the way,the way they're designed are more communal.So they're not like this or I'm,you know,isolated with a headset.I think,I think that'll be the big difference,but it still goes back to the same thing where you are the interactor of the system.You,that's,that's,it's all about you and the,and the,the drama manager and all these care,secondary characters that are guiding you down that path,that process that they built I think is,it's still the common thread that um that is gonna be used for storytelling.Yeah.And so as we're the storytellers,right?So you think about what are the implications for the way that you tell stories?So,Kurt,so you do a ton of public speaking and motivational speaking and you're,you know,you're on the circuit before 2020.But I mean,that's like you,I mean,like change like a champion,which is your,which is your company.Um You have a message that you're getting out there and you're,you're talking to leaders about change and transformation.And so how would um this type of thing impact you and your business?I,I kept thinking about that the whole time when she was describing it.I kept thinking over and over.I thought for one,the,the app,the ability to have in person and a real uh virtual or hybrid,whatever you wanna call it experience where it's not just watching a video,it's actually like she mentioned,you could have interaction with the person sitting next to you,they have a tire sitting next to you or whatever that uh created character is that you have um the ability to interact perhaps even with the presenter during that time or,or afterwards.And you know,the potential of this to me is exciting because one of the things that I enjoy when I go to speak in person is that interaction before and after it's not just being on stage,it's talking to the people afterwards or beforehand and just hearing their stories.And so this takes the technology to be able to do that that before in a hybrid model,you couldn't,right?You basically are just watching a video when it's over,it's over and then you log off,right?The other key like for you as a speaker too.I mean,you gain the energy from the audience,right?And so you don't want to lose that in a piece of technology and in zoom,you,you,you immediately lose it and it's like,OK,I got all these little screens up.But if you are in more of a virtual environment where you can actually see these avatars and,and,you know,there's emotion built into them so that you can see what's going on,you know,see their reaction to,to what,to,what you're saying.That's the difference.We're,we're a ways away from that.But that's what for it to be successful for interactive,you have to have that,that interactive and you be able to see what's going on in front of you.Yeah,very practical application is I'm 6 ft nine inches tall.You can't tell that on a zoom.You don't know.Right.But I'm in person.It's like,whoa,ok,there's a,an impact factor as a result of that.My avatar is 6 ft 10,by the way,just by an inch on our,on our last call,I knew how tall you were because I could see your knees up by your chin.Well,that's when I'm sitting on an airplane.Right?That's where you see me like that.Oh my God.I see.I,I see.I'm thinking from a storyteller perspective and there's,there's tons of things that uh of implications of this technology in storytelling.And I keep coming back to,you know,and I said this to Rhonda and she,she agreed that um there's gonna be a whole another service industry around staging and producing um using this technology because um it's gonna be the storytellers that become sort of the,the planners and developers and because you're gonna have to treat this.You're gonna have to use it as like as part of a live event and sometimes it'll be an event,an event unto itself and someone's gonna have to design it,someone's going to have to produce it and someone's gonna have to stage it.What,what we didn't get to ask,Ron is in uh the conversation Steve and I had had with a Azari before a lot of the assets you develop for their platform,you can use those same assets to develop an interactive game.Sure you can.So now like,you know,there's a,there's a cost share,like if you,you know,we're looking at it,you know,from folk tellers perspective because we're a trans media company,it's like,well,if we invested in,you know,uh a Azari doing some stuff for us,part of that investment,we would get back because we'd be getting uh assets to develop our interactive game at the same time and,and you,you hit it right in the head.They are assets,assets,meaning that they have value.And so remember we,we talked about building your digital footprint,um you know,on the web or socially,right?This is building your digital footprint in your tangible 3D assets.So if I build out an entire say I did the entire uh Harry Potter,you know,place in London,OK.You know how many assets there would be in 3D?Think about that.I mean,hundreds of thousands.Yeah.So you're talking millions and millions of dollars because there's a lot of work and effort that has to go into building all of those assets.Now,once they're built,they can be reused over and over again as different instances.Um,I go,go back to the days when I used to design things.You would say if I'm,I'm gonna use a specific 3d part over and over again,I draw it and I,I would create instances of that,that I can use all the way through designing a guy or a car or whatever,right?This is really the same thing,you know,and I think that that's going to provide a lot of value in the future to companies and the,the way that they,they calculate value and assets is going to start to change because that this is really important to that.So yeah,this gets this splinters and gets complex really fast.So,you know,as we're wrapping up,let's um I,I kind of want to put this question out there back to storytelling.What is the implication because you could,you could go down this rabbit hole and get completely lost and kind of freak out.But if,if you're a storyteller,regardless of your medium and you are telling your stories,what are some of the things that storytellers should be looking out for?Yeah,I think right now the way I view this is,it's just another tool to be able to tell my story,right?We have film,we have TV,we have books,we have uh learning modules,you know,all sorts of things that we can tell a story.But this is another great tool because it adds just another technology depth to it that hasn't been there.And so,um you know,to me that's the exciting part about this is to see just another tool to be able to tell the story,the trans media,another layer of trans media.Yeah.What about you,Steve?Well,it to,to me looking at it from a business perspective.OK.It's,it is definitely building the wealth of your assets as I I was just mentioning.And um it matter of fact,it didn't really dawn on me until right now that to thinking about how that new world is gonna operate,it's gonna be extremely interesting,but it's your stories,the stories that you write that contain all of those assets.I think you called it something the other day uh the different devices within a story.Remember you said that?Well,those different devices are ideas,those end up becoming,you know,three dimensional objects that become a part of your digital assets and the value of what you're doing.So that actually goes back to one of the episodes we did on IP it's IP value.So it's all this stuff is all connected,all interconnected.Yeah,Wow.So this,well,this is a great way to end.I will just end with this.Um If you are a storyteller focus on your story because there's only gonna be more and more ways to tell it,but you gotta get your story down and make sure it's what you want it to be and make sure um you know,it speaks to you and that the power starts from within and moves outward.Exactly.Get your ducks in a row.All right guys.Good one.Thank you.Thanks everyone.Thanks for having me.Thanks for having me.Thanks to.
 

Lights, Camera, Story!

Telling Tales in Film and Television
What makes film a compelling storytelling medium?
How does film differ from a television series?
How has moviemaking changed over the years?
Our guest is Bill Sarine – Beachglass Films is a collaborative, creative-first company founded by brothers BIll and Douglas Sarine. We have a strong history of using our skillset to create high-quality entertainment. Our brand of creativity combines new strategies and technology with time-tested filmmaking expertise.
 
Folktellers Universe
 
#Storytelling
#BillSarine
#BeachglassFilms
#FolkTellers
#StoriesToBeShared
#Film
#Hollywood
 
All right.Hey,welcome everyone back to the Folk Tellers podcast.Hey,uh,this is week Nine Lights,camera story,uh telling tales in film and television.Uh Our usual introduction,uh,some people call me the space cowboy.Uh This is uh Joseph Bastian and we're here with the abominable.How do you spell that?You know how to spell that?Yeah.Ok.Kurt David is here and the,uh hm,I'm not the extra.I heard you say the word A,is this like the Canadian edition of the,uh for you,the podcast for the P A?So,so we're gonna talk about storytelling uh in film and in television and we have a very cool guest.We'll bring on a little bit.Um,so I'll,I'll start with this,this quote.Um If it's a good movie,the Sound could go off and the audience would still have a pretty clear idea of what's going on.And that's a quote from Alfred Hitchcock.So,what is it about film that makes it unique,a unique storytelling medium?I'll tee it up with that.What do you think?Yeah,it's interesting because there are some parallels between television,which is what I'm involved with in film.And,and I've heard that before and in fact,I,I practiced that before.You watch a,a show without the sound on to see what that body language looks like,what the interaction the nonverbals look like.And I don't know how you do that with a film though because there's a lot to a film with music with uh you know,the visuals as well.Um But I think what,what he was trying to get at was that the story can be very evident whether the sounds on or not.I think that's probably what Hitchcock was referring to was that whether the sounds on or not these stories should be very evident.That's what my take away from that.That's,that's really good.I've got mine,I'll,I'll sit on mine until I ask Steve.So,what,what is your take on film is a storytelling medium like,right?Just your gut check or it's the closest thing to reality,right.Really?Yeah.Well,maybe tell me maybe video gaming is,um,moves even closer towards that.But obviously,when I make a film,you know,you're relating to it because it's related to other stories that,you know,are,obviously,are fictional or stories that,um,you know,uh,that have,uh been made up from the past.So it's,it's,uh,it's,it's definitely reality.I mean,um,that's definite.The other thing is,it's uh,it's very communal in my,in my opinion,like,you get to watch a movie collectively together.That's why it makes a very good medium.Right.Yeah.And it's typically like minded people that might like that genre.Right.In other words,it's a certain genre or a certain story that people attract to,like,like,you know,different movies that are out right now.There might be a certain genre that wants to watch a certain movie.It's like when we talked about music,it's very,very similar to that,you know,you get people that,you know,get,gather around to listen to a record,you know.Well,people obviously gather around to,to watch a movie collectively and,and experience that.So it makes a very good medium for storytelling because of that,of that fact.Right.That,that's really interesting.So I just thought it's something funny.So back in college,a woman I worked with,she said she goes,I had a terrible,terrible night last night.I was like,what happened?She goes,uh we went and this is when there's still Blockbuster video,right?So she,she goes,I went to rent National Velvet to watch with my mom and dad.And uh I rented Blue Velvet instead.Yeah,about 20 minutes in after the severed ear in the field.Uh The parents are like,where's the horses?It took 20 minutes to get to that part of the story.Talk about the,the communal experience.But um so,so here's my sort of my gut check on,on film and storytelling.I remember the first time.So I'm as a writer.Um you know,I write um novels and fiction and whatever so that what you do long hand,right?You're writing.So you're,you are telling,you are telling when you're writing.So you're telling the story in film.I,I tried to write a script and uh the editor just right across the front just wrote in big letters.Exposition.I'm like,what does that?What does that mean?Well,exposition is when you're telling and in film and a script,it's showing it's all direction.So when you write a script,you're not writing a narrative,you're writing,like here's the direction of how you want the scenes shot and yeah,you have dialogue and things like that,but it's,it's seen and setting and things like that where they're standing,this is what they're doing.This is like there's characters involved.It's like you're,it's like you're building something.It's really like the engineering of the,of a story.That's exactly it.So,so film as a visual medium,you are mostly showing,which is why like what Hitchcock said is you could turn the audio off so you could get rid of the dialogue and you should probably still be able to follow follow the story and this is why I'm not a screenwriter.So that's not a natural thing for me.So I have to ask you to right now.What's your favorite movie?What is your favorite film that you've seen?I can't answer this for what reason.Because if I answer it,my wife listens to this podcast.Just one.Ok.One of your favorite favorite?Yeah,we don't want a divorce court over this but one,there's a funny story behind it.Ok.That's why total recall was one of my favorite movies.And the reason being that it's,you know,that,um,it's a kind of a thorn in my side and her side is that,uh on our wedding night apparently.And I don't remember this.She said she said I rented it,you know,on our wedding night,I'm like,I don't remember that.She's like,yes you did.I,I recall it clearly.You rented this movie and apparently that's not what you do on your wedding night.So,anyhow,what,what do you do?I don't know.I'm not getting into that.I don't watch movies to,not to,not to self.Yeah.So what was the,what,what about the story in Toto Rico that attracted you?What is it you like?I,I love,first of all,I love science fiction.Um,and I like twisted plots where you don't know,really know what's going on.That,that to me is good storytelling.I love,you know,I love Hitchcock.I mean,love Twilight Zone I mean,all of that,that those old science,science fiction and adventure stories.I love those Indiana Jones.I love,I mean,everyone does.I mean,really?So,and that's a Stephen King short story.Total recall.Hm.Did you know that?Now you,do you ask me my,my favorite film?So now,now this will be esoteric.So it's actually a German film called uh Wings of Desire.And I believe it was uh Americanized with Nick Nicholas Cage was like angels in L A.They,they butchered but it was,it's,it was more of an art film.And basically the concept was,it was shot in Berlin before the wall came down and it was the story of an angel that gave up its immortality to become human and the backdrop of the Cold War of,of Berlin,the both sides of Berlin.It's just a beautifully shot movie.But um thematically,it's just what's it called?It's called Wings of Desire and the director,I think it won a bunch of awards again.You know,we're back into the eighties again.But it,it,it affected me.I was in college at the time and seeing that,that film.Um Yeah,that story really,it really affected me.And again,that's one of those things.It's a German film with subtitles so you could watch it.Uh without,you know,unless you,yeah,without the audio and you would,it would be a beautiful it would still be a beautiful film.Did you watch that on your wedding night?No,I didn't.No,no,no,because you guys would be sleeping.Oh,nice,nice.Well played.All right.So,uh,we,we've got,uh,Bill is here with us and Bill has a wide and varied background as a Hollywood film director.So definitely an expert in the field.But,um,Steve,you met Bill a long time ago.Why don't you,uh why don't you uh give Bill his big intro,Bill.Where did we meet?I think it was in a,a Met's office many,many years ago,probably.Yeah,probably.Yeah.Yeah,I remember um there was always a community of filmmakers and,and we're talking about our Met Zap here in uh in his office.And I remember sitting around the uh used to have these picnic tables and,you know,you never knew who was gonna be sitting there and,and one day,Bill was sitting beside me,we,we became very good friends.So,um so it was really,really good to hear your voice bud.It's uh great to be here and I'm really excited to talk to you guys about storytelling and,or whatever you'd like to ask me about.Well,I have a,I have a question.I know that you're a,you're a midwest guy uh from Chicago.And so I'd love to,the listeners,would love to know your story.Like,how did you get into Hollywood.How did you get from Chicago and get to Hollywood?Oh,man.Um I,I often say that my life is a cautionary tale.Um So it's uh I,I've had kids on set,you know,say to me like,oh,I don't,you know,just tell me what to do.And I said,I'm,I'm gonna tell you everything I've done and if you do the opposite,you should be fine.Um It's uh I literally,I was a,I was like an artist without a medium forever.And so,um you know,growing up,I just wanted to,I,I felt creative,I thought I wanted to do art,but I didn't really know,understand what that meant.So I tried everything.Like I was into photography,oil painting,jewelry,making,flower design,you name it.Like there was a thing that was creative,like I just want to try it.Um Some of those were massive failures.Um But uh you know,it was,it was just sort of like,kind of figuring out my,uh my,my place in the art world.And then at the same time,like,I just had a lot of business experience from a very young age.Uh I was managing companies when I was 15,16 years old.And so I was sort of developing these two sides of it and managing a company in a way is a lot like directing because it's,it's,you it's leadership skills,right?You're really just learning how to communicate with people more effectively.You're learning that being a boss doesn't really mean anything in terms of like telling people what to do.It's really about inspiring people and,and making people wanna work with you and,and make,and helping people understand that.You've got a,a vision for where things are going.Hey,Bill,this is Kurt.I'm sorry to stop your story.But what,what kind of company are you managing at 15 and 16 years old?If you could elaborate on that before you go in?Sure.Sure.Um,you know,I,I worked for this,uh,family in Chicago and they owned a whole bunch of stuff.So,um,we had,we had some flower shops and um landscape supply companies and uh over the road trucking companies and like a strip mall and a tanning salon and like all kinds of stuff.I thought you were gonna say Amway or something.Yeah.So I,I kind of got involved at that level,like,like early on,you know,I,I showed up one day like they need somebody to sweep the floor and I just kind of never left.Um,like they had me on salary by the time I was 16.And,um,and it,you know,it was awkward too.I had people working for me who were 60 70 years old and,uh,you know,you,it's weird,you're,you're like a 15,16,17 year old and,and,you know,it's,you're,you're talking to somebody who's dramatically your senior.Uh and where I come from,that's a little bit awkward.Um But you get over that all that really quick.So,um anyway,so I had,I had like a good business background and good managerial experience for a long time.And,you know,I just kept pursuing this idea of what,where's,where's my artistic outlet.And my brother is an actor and a writer and a musician and a dancer.And like,he's a,whatever,a quintuple threat and he's been doing that since he could walk.And you guys,you guys are partners now.Yeah.And we're business partners now.Um But,but I think that exposed me from an early age to kind of like a little bit of the idea of drama and acting and stage plays and all that kind of stuff,but I still wasn't really involved in it.And,uh you know,for a minute,I thought I was going to be an actor and I quickly got rid of that idea.Um because I just don't feel like that's my part of the process.Um But I,uh you know,when I came,I came to Los Angeles more for weather,I think than anything else.My brother had been here for about six months.And so I said,can I come sleep on your couch for a month?And see if I like L A.He was like,yeah.Sure.Cool.And I got here and I got a job with Disney but like,not in the cool part.So I was,I was buried over,I wasn't on the studio a lot.I was over in consumer products doing like,you know,uh like business planning and operations and stuff like that over there.It wasn't,it wasn't even super cool.I mean,it was cool to me because I was like,I'm in L A and I get to rollerblade at the beach every weekend.Um Like that's as far as I thought it.And like I said,I,I don't,you still do that,don't you?Well,I live at the beach.I,I don't roll it as much as I should.Um I walk.Um Yeah,so,so,um you know,just being here was terrific because of,you know,one I had a steady job.That was great and I was kind of getting exposed to more and more things in the acting realm and,you know,eventually my brother and I,with a group of friends just started kind of,hey,on the weekends,let's shoot some short films and let's make some music videos and let's do stuff like that.And,you know,he was in a band at the time and,you know,there's all that going on.And so,you know,these little projects that were costing me way too much money,um,of my own dollars just,you know,plunking down and this is,I don't even want to say how many years ago,but,you know,I'm spending 789 $10,000 on a short show.That's a,no,all the time,you know,you know,Bill,what that sounds like,uh,in Detroit terms is working for one of the auto companies while you're building your own car in your garage.Exactly.Exactly.And I always tell people like,they're like,why do you make movies?And I'm like,I use Detroit as an example.I always say,you know,if you're in Detroit,you're probably gonna make cars.If you're in L A,you should make movies.Like that's kind of what the town does.It makes sense,makes sense.Yeah.So,so we,we did that eventually I wound up getting a job over at the studio.Um,and that was,that was amazing.It was,I was in production management over there,like,and it kind of started low and worked my way up and it was crazy because I,you know,during the week I'd be working on a $200 million movie and on the weekends I'm making like a $2 movie with my brother and,you know,you're kind of,you're learning both sides of it.Um,like the first short that I was directing,I,I was,I was so,I was so terrible.I can't even tell you,I go back and I cringe at that now.Um,because I just did,like,I,I thought I was Michael Bay or something,you know,like I was,I'm working on,I was working on Pearl Harbor and,you know,I'm,I'm scouting a location with,with my friends to go shoot this short as if I had a choice.Like it's the location we were gonna use like that.It was free.That's why we're using it and,and I'm like,I think I can make this work,you know,we're gonna have to repaint this wall and we have to move this furniture or whatever and they're like,yeah,so grab the other side of the couch.I mean,like,like I'm talking as if I'm,I'm speaking like there's a set decorating department and they were like,no,no,you're,you're the department like you're all,you're all the way to tomorrow.Yeah,like you doing the whole thing.Um Yeah.So,I mean,look,it,I had an incredibly uh fortunate experience at Disney.Uh It was a really good run for me.You know,I worked maj the majority of the time in live action film and television production.I moved over to development on the film side.Um I had partial responsibility for running them up as franchise for a while.Um You know,I've worked on over 30 films,six of them with budgets,over $200 million.I've worked on tons of network television shows.Uh,five of those went over 100 episodes.Um,Power Rangers,Power Rangers,right.Uh,no.Well,Power Rangers is post Disney actually.Um,and I actually,uh Saban had still owned Power Rangers at the time and,um,after I left Disney,I,I had done some stuff with the Muppets to kind of revitalize that franchise.And I got a call from Saban saying,hey,we know what you do with Muppets.Can you help us with Power Rangers?So I went over there and shot some Power Ranger stuff.That's,that's awesome.So,Bill,um,you've kind of run the gamut like you,it's like starting uh starting at the pizza shop,making the pizza and then owning a franchise really?I mean,the way way you've done that.And so what we were talking about today and you being the,our resident subject matter expert now in,in film and as a director,we're talking about film as a storytelling medium and clearly,like you said,you know,you started out,you had,you had the creative drivers and you tried a lot of different things uh to as,as a creative outlet uh to,to tell stories.So how do you think you fell into film?Like what resonated about telling stories through film,what resonated with you that,that was gonna be your medium,I think,um,of it,it's three things for me really,uh,3d space and color have always made a lot of sense to me.Like,and I know it sounds kind of broad and weird.But,um,we like weird broads,by the way.Yeah,exactly.And,and I like a lot of,I tell a lot of you,like,I'm the,I'm like the gayest straight guy you're ever gonna meet.Like,I,I like,I like that's why you give good hugs.Oh,I'm glad you said hugs.I said hug ug um No,no judgment.Um No,I,I like,I,I love set design.I love production design.You know,my mom asked me to decorate her house.Like that's,that's,you know,that's just who I am from,from the get go.Um I'm actually a certified master floral designer.Um like I went through all the classes for that.Um I've done weddings and funerals and all that kind of stuff.Um So I just like color is really easy for me.Like I don't easy.Just meaning it all makes sense to me and 3d space does.So,so,you know,I walk into a blank room or a blank stage or whatever and I can tell you exactly what it's going to look like.Like it's all just lays out for me and I think those two things buttered up against.Uh and again,I wanna say it's like this managerial skill set that I have where again,it's that idea of like,you have to provide vision,you have to provide inspiration for people.But the way you do that is by connecting with them very one on one and very directly.And to do that,you really need to be like almost like a psychologist,right?You need to,you need to really instantly be able to get into a person's head and find out what makes them tick and how to move this forward.And it's the same with like directing actors in a part in that you really need to help them break down a character and understand this character.And you're gonna have these great discussions about motivation and,and what's going on in the scene and how is the scene affected by the story and,and all those things together.But you combine,you know,sort of like that understanding of the human psyche with a love of color in 3d space and all of a sudden it was like,oh,and I know how to manage people.So I was like,maybe,yeah,I was just like,I'll give this a try.And once I tried directing,I was like,yeah,this is,this is definitely something I enjoy.But if you don't thoroughly love it,you,we should do it because it's a lot of work.Like it's crazy.It's combination of people of,of the presentation of the film and the story,right?It's a combination you're not just creating and,and showing a film with color,with,with audio.It's,it's the people you have to manage as well to do that.Correct.I mean,that's where the difference.Yeah,I mean,you need,you need credibility and respect from,you know,from the crew,from all the crew members.But by the way,it's just imagine any other job you go into where every single person in the building and I'm talking from the craft service person to the producer,to the hair,makeup person.They all feel like they can do the job better than you,every one of them.Um And you've got,you know,sometimes two and sometimes 20 people looking over your shoulder like watching every single movie make like and oh,and here's the most famous person on the planet standing in front of you.Yeah.And so,so how do you balance that?So OK,so there's the creative aspect as a director where you're like,OK,we've taken this script and I have a,a vision of how I want this film to,to look and,and feel and then you've got the financial pressures of the studio saying,hey,this thing better make money and then you've got uh the whole production staff and everyone thinking that yeah,they know better,they can do it better than you.How do you um keep all those balls in the air without taking Xanax?Yeah,I'm not saying I don't take Xanax,you know,it's a,it's um the first and foremost I'd say is,you know,you gotta have an awesome team around you of folks that you communicate well with and probably have worked with in the past and everybody kind of,you know,that's why,like I've worked with my brother so many times.Like I don't,when I'm working with him,I don't have to wonder is this covered as that covered kind of thing?Like,yeah,you trust,you build that team of trust.So back to,back to your story really quick.When,when was your,uh,moment of,when you knew you made it,in your opinion?Oh,I don't think I've made it now really?I mean,yeah,I,I look,it's very,I'm,I'm not a braggadocious person by nature.So it's,I mean,I've done some really cool stuff but I,I really don't look back,I only look forward.So I just kind of look at what I haven't done and like,I don't think I'm a great director.I think I'm a better director every single time I direct,you know,and like I want to die on set.Like that's,that's how much I like.You're a practitioner.You're definitely a humble human being,that's for sure.Yeah,I just,I mean,I love,I love,I think it's a privilege and an honor to get to do the job,whether you're doing it for,you know,a million dollars or $1.I think it's the idea that you get to wake up and do something you enjoy that much,um for a living and get to work with so much,so many talented people.It's just like,how lucky are we that success all,all within?And that's a great,that's a great attitude to have.Um So Bill,one of our,uh our last questions is,what kind of stories are you attracted to?So,as a,as a director and as a filmmaker,um you know,I'm sure sometimes you've,uh you've had to take scripts that you didn't want to take.But like,if you had your druthers,what kind of stories,um do you like to tell through film?Well,hang on,I don't know what his favorite movie is.What's your favorite movie?Uh I,I don't know if I can say a favorite movie,I'm gonna tell you a couple of favorite movies.Um But,but,uh you know,I think if like go back in time and make any movie,my movie,I think,you know,Raiders Of The Lost Ark is,is way out there for me.Um It's,it's,you know,it's,I don't know,we as a kid,you know,I saw it in the theater and,you know,we,we would go back and re enact those scenes in the yard and stuff,you know,like swinging from a rope and all that stuff off a tree.Um it's,yeah,there's just,there's comedy and there's action and there's,you know,adventure and it's just,there's so many great things wrapped up in that.Um There's,I'd like some classics too.I mean,I think,you know,um as corny as it is like Casablanca to me is,is so incredibly well written and I don't think anybody could pull some of those lines off except for Bogie.Um just,just super fun.Um But I also have a lot of love for a lot of new films,you know.Uh So yeah,that goes into so what,what type of films,what type of stories do you like to tell?Like if you had your pick?So it,it's funny,like from a genre standpoint,I think I'd love to do more action drama than I have in the past.But that's just because I haven't done as much of that.Um And,and I think just like an actor,like if you said,like,what kind of parts do you want?They'd be like good ones,you know,like they don't care whether it's a horror or comedy or drama or what it is.They want to flex it out like they wanna go do all of them.Yeah.Yeah,I wanna do all of those for me though.What really,what the,the Met thing for me and,and I think a lot of folks forget about this on the writing process is it's all character,you know,um people sometimes think stakes are high because,you know,you're battling for the soul of all humanity and that really doesn't matter if,but if you're battling for the life of one person that matters,you know,like whose eyes am I seeing this through?And as long as you have a great character that you can really sink your teeth into that,um you know,is,is creatively well drawn and has depth to it.I mean,when I write scripts,you know,I don't,I write pages of bio about a character knowing that none of that's ever going to use that.You know,just everything.Tell me their favorite food.Why is it their favorite food?When did it become their favorite food?You know,like,what are they allergic to?What's their least favorite color?It gives you the foundation for that character,right?I mean,it just builds out the character to give the,the core of that back story.So,choices and the,the worst stories are stories that don't have good character development in my opinion.Yeah.So as long as you've got like a really well drawn character,that's got a lot of depth to it.That's,that,you know,has some,I mean,I have a lot of fun with actor friends of mine when they're doing auditions and,and they'll call me,like to come direct them on a,just a home tape thing.Uh,but one of the fun parts about that is,you know,they just get sides which are like three pages of script or two pages of script or something and maybe like a one or two sentence character description.So you have to make all these choices.Like you gotta hyper analyze every word on the page.You really gotta dig in and make all these choices and you know,we'll sit down for a couple of hours and just break down a character just who is this and what's going on here?And why did they say this then?Why did they say that there,you know,like,just kind of breaking down this thing,but that's so much fun,you know.So,so Bill,I got,you know,we're talking about stories,we're talking about movie making.I'm,I'm in a TV world,but as far as movie making has changed throughout the years,what,what's changed and where do you see this going as far as that type of storytelling?Uh I think the biggest thing that changed for me was,you know,there used to be like good cameras and bad cameras and there used to be like,uh we can't do some of that because it's out of budget,right?Uh I wish I had this or I wish I had that now.The wonderful thing is like,everything's possible,right?Like you,whatever you really want to be in this thing can 100% be in there,there's different ways it can be.What do you mean?Um You know,whether it's visual effects or,you know,like a,a helicopter shot,a helicopter shot was you had to get a helicopter,you know,now you can have a drone,you know,um,you know,if,if I wanted a,a motion move,you know,with that,that looks like a jib crane flying,you gotta go get yourself a crane.Now,you know,I could just position a couple of cameras and we,we can make the move and post.And I'm not saying that's easy.That takes really time for folks as well.But the idea that all this is possible.And so what I've,what I've moved to is because I used to try and figure it out,you know,and now I stopped figuring it out because I'm like,I'm probably gonna get it wrong.So,uh you know,I get my VP and my editor and post supervisor and V FX person and we all meet together and I say this is what I want this to look like.At the end of the day,you folks tell me the,the smartest way to shoot this,you know,because again,if I'm gonna guess I might guess wrong and I might guess expensive.So just let's work it out.But I,but you're still providing that vision,you're still providing that context and,and I'll bring photo references or samples or whatever.And they're like,I want it to look exactly like this.I want to look as close to that as possible or whatever.And I'm,I'm blown away sometimes by what they come up with,you know,because it's like,oh,that,that is definitely not what I would expect.So,to me,like,that's so awesome that,that we have this toolbox of ridiculous,ridiculously awesome tools,you know,to,to create stories with.Well,this has been great Bill.I mean,you literally are,are a wealth of knowledge.I mean,you know,so much about filmmaking,probably more than anyone that I've,I've met in,in Hollywood in the many years that I've worked there.And um and I'm very honored to be able to be working with you with and Joseph on a,on an upcoming project that we're doing collectively together.So that,that's,that's an amazing thing to me.No.Thank you guys so much.I'm,I'm a big fan.Uh I think is a really fun series and uh I think there's a lot of uh deep storytelling to be done with that as well.So let's go conquer the world with it.All right,we'll talk to you soon.All right.Peace and love,gentlemen.Thank you.Thank you.You know how much wealth of knowledge there was and what he was saying,oh,my goodness.There's for a young filmmaker just to sit and listen to that.I mean,but just the fact of the volume,like when you're working on a 202 $100 million movie as a director or in any capacity.Right.That's a big deal.No,definitely,definitely build huge,huge wealth of knowledge.Uh,not only,not only in,uh,you know what,it's like being a director in Hollywood but kind of how you get there and it's kind of a hodgepodge how you can get,you know,when I asked him the question,what was his aha moment of when he made it and his answer to that?Right.It's like,well,I still haven't made it yet.He just felt that way despite the projects he's been involved with,despite the,the amount of time he's spent doing this,I mean,that's a midwestern value perhaps that he still feels that way.But it's funny you say that because like when,when we're out there,we hear that from people who work in Hollywood,they say we love people from the midwest because they get shit done.Like there's,it's like not,it's a lot of,a lot of it's that work ethic,right?They're fairly humble about it,right?It's all about me.Yeah.No,it's blocking in and like we need to get so we've gotta get this done today.So let's break it down and let's let's execute when you start working at 14,15 years of age.You know,I know you guys,I mean,I worked in the corn fields,you know,dessel corn,those were,those were hard,hard jobs.People,I mean,people,people that you said they were 70 years old,they had people that were working for him.That's incredible.I mean,but when you come from that working class and then you go out there,it is definitely different.I mean,those are the people that I see running a lot of the,uh these corporations.So because it is a business,here's,well,here's what struck me,here's what struck me about what Bill said it,it um echoes what you said earlier about filmmaking.It's they call it a production because you are building,you're assembling.And like from what I heard,what he was saying is the process of filmmaking.It is,it is a process,there is a way you do it,it is a building an assembly and a design and all those,you know,all those things uh which I find,which I find fascinating what I find really respectful of,of somebody like this is as I mentioned,the,the managing of people,right?You have the managing of people of all different types,you have your actors,you have your grips,you have everybody in between,but also you're managing the actual visual,audio,technical aspect of that production as well.So it's people and technology,it's,it's all this put together and pulling that together.That that's why you see a lot of names,you know,in the credits,uh,for different people,like,you know,they've worked together many,many times over and over again,like Jon Favreau for,for example,and the Mandalorian and he,um,a lot of the people,you know,you actually worked on Iron Man and that as well so that you see that commonality and why,because they want to work with the people that they can trust.They'll said it clearly.Um,and if you're doing anything,it doesn't really matter whether you're starting a small business,a pizza shop or whatever,you have to surround yourself with people that you can trust and that can do the work and get things done.And if they can't,that's the,those are the wrong people to hang out with,you know,and leadership.He,he also hit on this too.Leadership.It's not about bossing people around leadership is about service.It's where you actually are helping the people around.You rise up.It's the best they can be.We didn't ask this.I'm sorry,we didn't ask this when we had him on.But what's the best way to,to look up Bill and find out what he's doing and projects and everything?Yeah.Um,well,I know his uh,beach glass films dot com.That's Bill's his production company,his brother.Yeah,him and his brother,him and his brother.Yeah.So you guys got kind of sparked an idea in my head that I,I gotta get out.Um uh oh no,this,this whole,this whole idea like you said about trust,right?To me,I always think I'm thinking in terms of story.So the story craft,the story craft of what it takes to make a film,which means you have to put a team together and there's a process and it's a,it's truly is a,a production.And Steve,you said the propensity for people to work with people that they trust.Um part of it,part of that trust,I,I believe in the story craft is now the creative part.It's like you need to understand that person's creativity and what their,you know what their end game is,right?Like,and you wouldn't know that right out of the gate.But Bill said he likes working with his brother because his brother knows what he's looking for.So he could probably,they could probably finish each other's sentences and like in the,in the storytelling,in the story craft and the story making that is such an advantage on so many fronts,not only on the business side,being able to produce that film or produce that book or show or whatever,but also the creativity to find someone that their creativity resonates with your creativity.How do you,how do you guys do that with your own stories when you're writing stories?When you're creating stories?How,how do you do that.I was gonna say,I mean,literally you use a sports analogy.Uh It's like a relay,you know,like I,I do a lot of stuff,you know,and a lot of writing with Joseph and it's effortless.I'll write apart.He'll write a part and then somehow I don't know how it happens.It's just,they sink together and,and,and then when I go back and read a lot of the stuff,it's like they were written by one person.That's when you truly know that you've put together a team of individuals that you know,that are,are connected on that level.And that's not easy to do.You have to,to,to do that.You have to,I spend a lot of time with Joseph.According to Laurie,I was gonna ask,you know,we are dating now as Bill said,OK,so the uh the gay straight guys that I know my wife,Julia says she's like,uh,oh your girlfriends on the phone really?Stop it.Anyhoo,curse my girlfriend abominable.No,wait,no,no,no,no,no.This is really,this is really important because it's,it's finding people that you have an affinity for a deep level of trust and understanding that you find a way to work with uh both personally and professionally.And so Steve said he doesn't know how it comes together.I this is how I know it comes together because someone again at the end of the day,someone has to own the story,right?So,um you know,we worked on uh Jack's Medal.So this was Steve's story about his great uncle and I know he's,he's talked about it before.But um it was really his personal story along with the story of his great uncle coming over from England and winning the fa cup.And you know,all these,all these great things,but it was a deeply personal story.So you,you know,I had to give Steve the room,it was his story.But he was,you know,I finally said,like he said,I got to get this story out,but he was so close to it.I said,listen,just get something out and I'll,I'll provide the framework and the stuff,objective lens that you could,yeah,I,I'll,I'll like help in the,in the crafting of it.But the,the,the heart of it,the,the spirit of the story,he had to take ownership and he did take ownership of it and that's the way we're able to work together because,you know,I,I stepped back and allowed him like that,that creative space and that personal space.Um and,and took the role of like,I'm gonna be more like the sort of the,yeah,the former and the shaper,right?And,and conversely like,you know,you know,we've done that,you know,we've done that with,with other things.Yeah.So,but at the end of the day,like,you know,Bill is a director.Someone's got to own it,like,own it.Well,what's interesting about Jack's Medal?And I,I think I,I'd love to close with this part of it.Is that,that forward that you wrote,that was from the perception of Jack even though he wasn't alive anymore.Right.Right.So,so I would remember I asked you to,to write,I do.In fact,I wrote it,I did.But this turned out even better in my opinion because,well,it was just a thought that I had him and like the only person that can write the forward to this book is Jack.But then I thought,well,but he's dead.It's a problem.How can that happen?So I wrote just a,I jotted down a bunch of notes and I called Joseph and I said,Joseph,somehow through the Ether,Jack has to write this.And so he took the notes that I had and he wrote it back and I made a few modifications to it after that.And it's,it literally was written through the ether.I mean,it was that,that's one of the most amazing things that I've ever worked with him on is just that forward,you know,forget the rest of the book.But the rest of the book is I like,it's a good book.I think it's a great story.But but the,but that,that forward is so unique because I don't know,a lot of books that have the forward written by someone that's dead and the way it was done,it was phenomenal,in my opinion,right?It was much better than what I could have wrote.But that said,imagine the filmmaking side of that,right?If you were to take that book and that story and make that film and make that forward that part of that film,you have to be able to that.Here's the omniscient narrator,right?Like the unseen one,when you,you can see the visual of,you know,a desk with someone with a,an old ink pen and,you know,writing out in cursive,you know,this,the thoughts of like I'm dead now or whatever.I,you know,they did that uh series of unfortunate events.Um that whole series was like that where you had the the narrator was this sort of mysterious person that was guiding you through the story,through the story.And,and you and Jack was that was that character?I mean,because when I,when Steve gave me the notes and I wrote that um that intro uh that forward,I wrote it like,like a character,like this is a character,this is the character,like there has to be some sort of mystery and humor and it had to be representative of,of what Jack's personality was probably like.And Steve and I had multiple discussions about that and then,yeah,um,it came out,it came out great.So,before we wrap up,we've got to circle back about Kurt.Your favorite movie?My favorite movie.So,we've heard yours,right?We've heard both of yours.Um,this is uncharacteristic for somebody like me who has a strong sports background.You know,I'm,I'm big and burly.I'm,I'm abominable,I believe is what you addressed me as earlier.Uh my favorite movie of all time Bar and,and sometimes my kids laugh at me because we'll play it in the house.Is the sound of music.And here's why I,I've been to where they tape it at in Austria.I love that area.I love music.I love the story.It's got the drama,it's got the love line,it's got the war,right?It's got all this going on and somehow they put it all together with beautiful music,with beautiful scenery,beautiful vis,you know,visionary.Um That's why it's one of my favorite movies.I have a theory that,that our favorite movies are usually tied to some seminal uh moment of where we were in our,in our lives.Like that's the,that's the emotional.So,let's see.In 1965.Yeah,I don't think I would have been thinking a whole lot about it,but no,honestly,I just love the,the creativity.I love the uh the music,the music is a big part of it,obviously.And so and great acting.Yeah.Great acting.Absolutely.All right guys,uh film,television and storytelling,we could go on forever.But,uh I think this is a good one.Bill was awesome.Great.And on that note,uh thanks everyone and,uh,we'll see you on the flip side.
 

Securing Your Story

Protecting Your Narrative in an Open Market
Every business has Intellectual Property, and today it’s more valuable than ever. But most businesses don’t recognize it, protect it, or exploit it. It’s usually an afterthought. When an inventor develops something new, management may start thinking about patents. When a new brand is ready to launch, management may start thinking about trademarks. When an employee leaves and takes your new product to a competitor, management may think about trade secrets.
Every business needs to make Intellectual Property a top priority of business planning. Financial experts say that the Intellectual Property portfolio is typically one-third or more of the total value of a business. Intellectual property can also lead to greater profits, expanded market share, multiple streams of revenue, and better business reputation.
 
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#StoryTelling
#SecuringYourStory
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#FolkTellers
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Ladies,gentlemen and everyone in between.Welcome to the folk tellers stories.We shared podcast this week,we're gonna be talking about securing your story a little professional and personal advice on protecting your narrative on the open market.So the beggars and thieves can't take your good story telling.Uh I'm here with my compatriots,Kurt David and I keep thinking about your opening here of ladies and gentlemen and everybody in between because now we're talking about protection.Ok.I'm not in touch with that and,and cut that out.But are you wearing any?Ok,this is,we're,we're going down the rabbit hole quick,Steve can't even get his name out,but uh you're here.Who else is here?Well,I'm here,Stephen Sadler,Stephen Sadler.I'm glad you're here.Stephen Sadler too.I would have missed you if you weren't here.So,anyway,all right.So,uh uh that was like just checking it in with the laughter,right?So securing your story,uh We've all published.Uh Some of us had patented,uh our stories,our ideas and,you know,it's a,it's a hidden world.It's a hidden world.I,the quote,I begin with is uh Pablo Picasso says a bad artists,copy good artists steal.I'm like,oh,that's not nice.But uh uh one of our,so I wanna want to start with a,is a book written by um one of our friends and actually our intellectual property uh attorney's name is Bill Nier.Bill wrote a book,uh a really cool book uh called the Business Owner Guide to Intellectual Property.Turning your ideas into gold.And Bill is an IP lawyer.Uh Bill couldn't be with us,but he's letting us,uh he's letting us actually steal some of his stuff.So that's kind of cool.Um Well,I guess it's not stealing if he gave us the rights.Picasso said it's ok.All right.So here's what,here's what uh Mr says about intellectual property and about protecting your,your creative ideas and stories and endeavors.He said every business and this could be every person needs to make intellectual property a top priority in their planning.Financial experts say that intellectual uh an intellectual property portfolio,say that three times fast is typically one third or more of the total value of a business.Intellectual property can also lead to greater profits,expanded market share,multiple streams of revenue and better business reputation.Uh Bill was the uh lawyer for uh Kellogg's for years and years and years.And uh they sold,when Kellogg sold um part of their portfolio,they sold Ernie the Elf uh from Kieler cookies and he had been uh the Chief Elf since 1968.Uh and in 2001,Kellogg's purchased Kieler Foods for approximately $4.5 billion.The intellectual portfolio that Ernie and his friends in the tree represented was $1.5 billion of that value.That is one very expensive Elf.And one of the things that bill advises is it's 33 steps.He says you need to research,collect and protect and we're gonna talk a little bit about that.So what do you,um,what do you guys feel like?Uh is it a,is it a waste of time to try to lock down your,your ideas and your story or is it something,you know,in your personal experience?Is it something that you've,uh,you've had good luck with no luck with or what,what about you,Steve?I mean,you've done,you've done a lot of stuff on your,uh your ideas and your stories.Um,some things you've,you've just written,like I can tell you as a writer,um,you retain,like if,if you write something down and you have a physical or a digital copy of it,um,that you can prove is written at a certain time,it,it's got sort of automatic copyright but you don't have all the protections versus filing it.But Steve,what about,you know,what's been your experience in this because you've done a lot with like,like patents and devices and technology and stuff.I think it depends on the reason why you're trying to secure the IP.And what I mean by that is if you're,if the reason that you're trying to secure it is because you want to sue people later on,then that's not the right reason to secure the IP.Securing the IP should be kind of going to what Bill wrote in his book there.You're,you're creating wealth,you're creating value.So the reason that you're patenting something or you place a copyright on something or you're protecting your brand,it's to build the value of the entity that,that,that it's in and that doesn't matter whether it's a product or whether it's a song or whatever.Um But a lot of people don't,they don't see it like that.It's like they,they wanna,you know,kind of secure it and protect it for the purpose of either sitting on it and suing someone else later or whatever.And,and as an event and as in being an inventor,that's bad energy to me,the,you know,the reason that you're doing is you want to protect,you know,your art.And the interesting thing is when you're dealing with patents and trademarks,it's actually called art.Really.Yes.Matter of fact,if you're doing a search,you're looking for what prior art,that's the research part that Bill was talking about that the first thing is researching,making sure that,that idea or whatever it is,is not already out there.Yeah.And that's usually why you,you need an attorney,like an attorney go out and they'll actually do a proper patent search or a trademark search or whatever,find out whether someone else is using it and if they're not,or if you're doing something that's similar,then,you know,obviously they have to cite that and say,you know,this particular pattern here is,you know,similar and cited but yours is different.And,and that's the other thing.Another word that comes from stories is novel.You know,the,no,the,the novelty of,you know,of what a patent is it something original,original.Yeah.Actually,I think the definition is a,a patentability requirement according to which an invention is not patentable if it was already known for before the date of filing.So that is the key part.You have to have that component.It has to be,has to be novel.That's interesting.Kurt,um Kurt fell asleep.Um Kurt,we need to wake you up because you're like,what,what do I know about this?Like he's over here taking notes.He's like,shit,I didn't secure any of that.No,you know,it,it's funny because this is a great topic and,you know,one of the things that I've learned is that I'm still learning,but most of us,I think most of us will.I think it's safe to say most people will never be filing for a patent.Right?I mean,would that be a safe assumption that most people are not gonna file for a pen?But what is important?Right?For certain people,certain situations,I think it depends like you mentioned,Steve and it depends on what the idea is because as I tell people,every book,every TV show every product starts with one thing.It's an idea,right?It's an idea and we all have ideas.Some are great,some are grand,some are like,what,what was I thinking?Right?Something as simple as a Hula hoop,right?I mean,think about that.I mean,somebody who came up with that idea,um obviously has done well with it.Um I,I remember when I first wrote my,my book,my first book and talking about this,right?It's like this is new terrain for me.I,I didn't know anything about copyright or how did this work?And one of the biggest suggestions I had is,well,there's a poor man version that you can do right to protect your IP.And I said,well,what is that?And Stevie alluded to it about the time stamp,right?They said,well,if you have something written,you can mail it to yourself in a certified letter,it'll be time stamped with that certified letter and just don't open it because from that date,you can prove that.Hey,here it is.Right.And if it's in a court of law or whatever that is,I can then open it or have the judge open it.And here it is,this is my idea,by the way,and here's a time stamp,but that's a cheap version.You have to send a lot of those to you.What do you mean?Well,say you send one and someone,you know,it says,hey,this is my pattern.As soon as you open it up,you've opened it up,you only got one.Oh,so that's even a,a,it's a little more expensive than the Superman version.It's a great,so a 10 pack of registered letters.But no,it's a great point because yeah,when that does have to be open for whatever the reason and,and like you said,if,if the motive for doing that is to,um,sue or protect or,you know,from,not protect but to,to look at,ok,well,how can I sue somebody if they steal this?You know,to me it's a protection of an idea,right?It's an idea that you have that I have that whatever it is we want to protect that and,you know,we deal with that.In fact,one of the things I deal with the distributors for TV,programming,uh that I'm involved with is,well,who owns the content.That's always one of the first questions that distributors ask in TV,content.Well,who owns it?Well,when I can say I,I do,it opens up the doors a lot more versus,well,so,and so does,but I'm involved and,and,you know,it just kind of complicates and muddy the water.But then in,how do you protect that as well?Distributors want things that are nice and clean,you know,and the less people that are involved,the better if you want to distribute your,your movies or TV series or whatever or your book.Yeah,I mean,they want clean.Here's something you guys,you guys are hitting on.That's kind of kind of making me think is,you know,one of the other reasons you want,you want to get legal counsel on this and why you're intellectual property,we're talking about the idea.And I think what happens is right out of the gate when someone has an idea,they're like,oh,this would be a great movie or this would be a great,they're immediately thinking about the asset,right?And actually the value is in the idea and Steve taught me this and I'll tell you a story about that when we were in Los Angeles.So,um the idea that you have,if it's a good idea,it's going to create many assets over time.So one of the reasons to secure that IP to,to secure that idea is you don't know what this could become like in your mind,you're like,like you said,you're doing a book.So you do a,a book and in your mind,you're like,oh,you know,we're gonna create the book and I'll secure the book.But the ideas in that book may turn out to be many,many,many other things.So it's not just securing the book.It's really,it's securing the idea example,my from glory day's concept,it started as a book turned into a TV show.Now we're talking about expanding it.Not many other factors as well.Uh But what's interesting,what bill mentioned from his book was talking about the,the value of that,right?The value of the IP being part of the whole package,right?I mean,it's something I didn't think of before.It's like,oh yeah,that protection is very important because that's part of the value of it,by the way,what you're doing at all those pieces.Uh Joseph been calling that for a while with um Jeff Gomez trans media.I mean,you're,you're telling your story in different types of media,that's what trans media means.So,so that's why you have to protect all of these different things in different channels that they are actually gonna be delivered in.Right.Absolutely.Because they could be a game,they could be a book,they could be a movie,could be the metaphors.Oh yeah,yeah,we should do a podcast on that.Oh,wait,this is a really bad memory.Our next episode.Oh Wait,that was episode number one.That's number one,number one with the bullet.Uh So the story,a story I was gonna tell about uh securing your IP.So uh Steve took me out to L A and we're doing,you know,the whole folk tellers universe and,and he sets up all these meetings in L A and so we're in this um rented uh L A bungalow and it was an Airbnb.Yeah,it was and I'm gonna do like a door song because because now,but I was with Little Steve in a Hollywood bungalow.Um But uh I think you're the one with the God that I don't know.But anyway,so someone will know the lyrics to L A woman of which I'm referring.Thank you.See,Bill's nodding his head.Thank you,Bill.Even though it's a token nod,that'd be a story that you started about an hour ago.You started a story about an hour,an hour ago.So here we go.Come on.All right.Uh Bill,can you patch in L A woman?Uh On this part,I don't have the rights.It's protected.We'll talk about that,we'll talk about that,someone secured those rights on it.So we're in L A and,and we're in the bungalow for our means.It's the morning and Steve,you know,Mr Digital social media guy and he goes,dude,like we got to lock down this,I'm not a social media guy.Ok?He's a,he's a social media,he's my social media guy.Now.You're,you're more than that,you're just my guy.Oh,you're just my guy.Ok?I don't think this is that type of offense.Well,he's got that half eaten banana shirt on.Right.That's right.Yeah,I got a pink shirt with John.We did open up this session with uh ladies and gentlemen and everybody in between.So I guess right off the bat,but go ahead,I'm Juan today.So all right,back to the story.Back to the story.So in this episode,um so we're in L A where it's in the morning before our meetings and he's like,you gotta lock all this social media down,you gotta lock down the folk teller's name across media and he's going,he's like this is available,it's available on Twitter,it's available on Instagram and I'm like,OK,he goes,we could,he goes,you don't understand and so I'll like pass it.Why is,why was that a big deal?Because all of those different social media platforms or channels for you to be able to send content out to and every single one of them has like a vanity name to it.And if you can't lock that down right across the board,then someone else will.So,you know,and you,and that's not even about having a trademark on that.So say,for example,you have the trademark on folk tellers,which we do,right?But you don't have the Instagram folk tellers and some so someone can literally start pumping stuff out to that one and you know,yeah,you could probably send them a cease and desist letter,but then that becomes expensive to do that.Sure.So if you're smart,you when you come up with the name and you do a patent,you do a uh copyright or I should say a trademark or service mark search,you should look right across the board at all of the different social channels to see whether you can lock it up.And by the way,for people that are into this,this is the start of your platform,this is creating your digital footprint and um and that's what I advise.That's a great point because,you know,years ago,we didn't have to worry about that,right?If we had a copyright for a book,that was the book,right?But now you're saying,and I agree that that boy,you gotta make sure you lock down all the social media avenues,right?I mean,all of them,right?I mean,you want to get as many as you can because if you don't control your narrative and your story,someone else will.That's folk tellers has been talking about for many,many years.Well,so in Bill's book,I mean,his whole premise is,you know,the,the three steps.It's the,the research,the collect and protect and um I don't think what most people realize because all this is hidden,like no one's gonna tell you this.I mean,you have to,you have to go find,you have to talk to like,yeah,I mean,we are not lawyers,we're not providing legal counsel.We highly recommend that you find someone who is an expert,intellectual property and have this conversation with them when you think that you have a great idea.Um,it costs money,it costs time.But,uh,we've all done it and,and,uh,it's,you know,it's well worth it.It's well worth.Um,if you think you've got a good enough idea,it's well worth putting money down because even when Steve,like,unfortunately,um,those platforms weren't locked down and they didn't cost us a ton of money.But,like,yeah,I mean,people make a living.You haven't got my bill yet.Well,we're,well,well,the bigger you are,the more of a target you are too though,right?If you can get it before you become a big fish and that's the thing.And the only thing is you don't know what he,he said it before.You don't know what something can become.You don't know what this idea,uh,in patents they call it.Well,everything it's called art.Art,right?And you don't know where,where that's going to be in the future.So the idea is to make sure that you're controlling all of the different platforms and all the names and the narrative just get starts to get published out there.And all of a sudden you've got a huge,you know,footprint of uh of content and that's where the value is of what you're doing,especially when you're doing things digitally these days.It's like people look at something digital and they go,well,I don't see a building or,you know,I don't see a car,I don't see any physical assets.But meanwhile,in the electron world,it's enormous.I mean,this,you know,how much content and how much things that you built and it's as,and as it's as valuable as regular buildings,if not more because some of the interesting things are,I can go back to ideas and patterns that I had,you know,10,15 years ago,open up those files and they haven't deteriorated.It looks exactly the same as the day that I left that file.But if I had a building,that building is not gonna look like that.I got a question about that Steve because is it only valuable based on the number of impressions I would gain in that area or is it valuable before that?I mean,because you,you,you're locking this down with the idea that it is gonna become valuable.But is the value only in impressions that,of course,so you can answer this multi tiered question.So there's,uh,there's companies that make a living off of just buying URL S and then reselling them,they sit,you know,they,they buy hundreds of thousands of URL S and they just wait to see if those names hit or someone and then it's like anywhere between,you know,sell them to you for 20 bucks or 20,000,it's like scalping concert tickets.Yeah,that's what it is,is Joseph Bastian dot com right now.I wonder that's why uh we do.Yes,you got that.He got me that for Christmas to put a little digital bow on it for him.So this,so,so to answer,you know,so there's Kurt's question and uh you know what you're touching on and you've,you've talked about it a little bit,I think already,but I think it's,it bears repeating,talking in depth around protecting your story.You know,you came up with the model.Um CF I,so what,what's,what's CF I?And how does that impact protecting your story and communicating your story?Well,II,I mentioned that in the previous podcast,so I don't want to get into the detail,but just CF I,but it's content,frequency and influence,you gotta have content,which is your story,you have to have frequency,which is all those channels that we were just talking about.Like placing content into them on a regular basis.And a cadence where people know that the content is coming just like this podcast,people are gonna go,hey,there's a podcast coming next Tuesday again.And you're telling people that.So then they start to expect it when you just drop off or you're,you know,you're not sending content,people aren't gonna follow you.That's,that's how you get a following because they expect things to be sent to you.And then the I obviously is the influence side and that's where you actually get people of influence to help you expand whatever your product is or,or your service or um or your music or whatever you're doing.So,so what risk would be we be running?So we went,you know,early on,we spent the money and the time to uh uh trademark uh folk tellers and to,you know,create our brand and to do all the,you know,do all the,the work that we needed to do.What if we wouldn't have done that?Where,where would we be now?Like if we had this podcast,what,where would,where would our risks be?Well,someday an accountant is gonna take all of your assets and they're gonna apply value to it.And every one of these pieces that you own has a value to it.So people just think that,oh,it's just physical assets that have value it,isn't it?So,this whole digital world has just as much value,if not more than,than what the physical world does.And,um,and to not to not understand that as far as a business,you know,you know,in this era would be very foolish.But is it,is it value kind of like a house?I could have a value in my house,but unless I sell it,it doesn't matter.But is it kind of that way as well?What you're describing?Yeah,I mean,anything is worth what someone's gonna pay,right?I mean,that's,that's what it is but there,there's comparatives.I mean,when you're dealing with houses,you're someone's gonna,you're gonna compare it with the other houses on your street.Well,you're gonna compare it with other domain names that have X number of traffic or you know,where you are on the Alexa rating or you know how many Twitter followers you have and so on and so on.I mean,that's,that's,that's,yeah,it's still important.Now,obviously,if you're selling products,your products and services have to be good too.That's the,the sea could be replaced with products as well,not just content,it could be products,frequency and influence and we just came up with that today.But uh but yeah,I write that down but I have a question.Uh Bill talked about the three aspects in his book,right?The research,the second one.What does that mean,exactly for the second aspect of that.So to collect.I know.Yeah.So,so you actually have to collect your assets and,and,and it's looking at what Steve said you have,you have,uh,an auditor or an accountant come in and it's not just physical assets like buildings and books,it's also,you know,digital and,and it's everything and then putting a value to it.So you gotta,you gotta collect it and say what,what really is the scope and reach of our intellectual property and to have someone come in,who knows how to do that?Because you wouldn't know like most that's the thing is all this stuff is hidden.Like as a business owner,you,you would not intuitively,you know,any of this,like he said,like uh the Kieler Elf was worth $1.5 billion.Just the elf,just the image of,of uh what's his name?I'm trying to blank.Oh,it's,we have to ask Bill would do you know the name of the Ke Ernie?Ernie?Boom.Thank you.That's my brother's name.So uh yeah,it's Ernie the Elf.He an E as well.Uh Some days he,yeah,he could be,he could be impish like Steve Steve's impish sometimes he's,you're Elvin,impish,sprightly.All right.All right,I'll stop my um What was your question?You answer the question about the collection.So,collecting is,is,is gathering all of your IP and assume,and again,you don't assume that,you know what all your IP is until you actually go through the exercise with the professional.Can I give you a story on that one?You absolutely may give us a story.So,I,you know,I worked with the,um,with the Zappa State for a long time with,ah,Zappa Frank Zappa's son.I mean,he,ahmed had to take the estate when his mother passed away and take all of the analog assets that were in their vault that they had.And there was a lot and he had to have them all converted over to digital to make sure they preserved because a lot of them were actually,you know,degrading music stats and records and tapes or whatever.And,um,that is,you know,to them,that's the value,that's everything that they needed to be able to,you know,you know,give that to an account and say,here,you know,put,put a value to this,let us know,you know what this is worth and all of these,uh,you know,these music estates have to do that.Now,even Prince had apparently had a huge library of assets and all of those would have been done would have been recorded analog originally and would all had to be converted into digital.Um,I hear still to this day that people,uh,the best medium for recording or,you know,keeping music and data is C DS still because they,they don't,they don't,they don't degrade,um,anything that's tape and,you know,and that type of thing does degrade.So if you're gonna back something up,burn it onto a CD,because a CD will be around in many,many years and you can find a CD player still.There'll only be two things around in 100 years.Golf balls and C DS and cockroaches and cockroaches.Well,let me tell you one of my biggest mistake that I made uh from my,my first book from glory day.I remember the publisher came in after a certain time.Every book has a shelf life,right?And the publisher came to me and said,well,do you want to buy your original plates?I think they call it.I'm not sure when printing what they call that,but you have the original plates and there was a price tag at,you know,250 bucks or whatever it was.I don't remember what the price was and I'm like,uh,no,I don't need it,you know,and now I regret the fact that I didn't do that because I would have the in the original plates for the printing that I could take anywhere and do.And now you have to start all over again.So anybody out there that's looking at authoring a book,if you get offered the opportunity to buy those original I don't know what they call them,anybody know what they call them or whatever.Yeah.From the printing of the actual book I should have bought them because then I have those,right?Otherwise they just destroy them.Right.Start all over again.Well,you guys are touching on some interesting things because as creators,as storytellers,our inclination is to create,set behind us and continue to create.So and there's probably people listening that are like nodding their heads.It's like,yeah,when was the last time you stepped back?And you looked at the collection of all of your,all of your work,all of your art,all of your inventions.Well,the thing is where do you,where do you put it?Right.That's the next thing.Yeah,and,and like format and all that kind of stuff.I don't mean that,I mean,a lot of people,they just have it in their name or they might have it in a business's name,but the thing they don't understand,you better have it in a trust because if it isn't locked in a trust when you leave this planet,it will be gone,it will be taken.And you hear that all the time,there's a lot of people that,that don't have trust that,you know,and,and that's an easy,that's an easy thing to set up,you know,contact your lawyer and,and say,look,I have to these assets and I don't want to put them into a truck but a lot of people,and I,and I'm not,you know,giving people advice,legal advice,but relative to our IP and what we're doing,everything is,is put into it.It's almost like,um,putting your personal will together but around your,your IP.Yes.Well,and you used an interesting word that I picked up on.Trust.It all boils down to trust.right?Because you have to trust that your information,your content,your product,whatever it is is protected because otherwise,can you trust that that won't be,you know,like you brought up a great example and I didn't even think about this if and when my final breath happens,what happens to my IP.Unless it's in a trust,it's wherever it ends up after that and you have family members and then they get into fun.They like,no,no,no,it's the other way around.It's like,no,it'll become popular when you take your final.That's the way it normally works in that world unless you're of us being still alive,I think.And,well,yeah,he's in Kalamazoo,Steve.Don't tell Kurt our plan,which they take my stuff and you can have someone,someone has to die for this podcast to take off after the,after our,our series is done.Can I suggest it's Bill our producer?No,no.Well,he said he's already dead inside.So it doesn't matter,whatever you're a I Joseph,you were already killed.So no one has to,no one has to die.Now you're already dead.There's the story,we have to protect that.The A,what I'll write a story on A I Joseph.No,I'll use a I to write the story in 20 minutes.There's a story in the story like the w but what's,you know,I,I think out of this whole conversation,what's really important is understanding that there's value and that's something that,you know,you mentioned Joseph that we just,our focus is creating,right?We just want to create,we just want to create,put it behind us,create,put it behind us.And,and I think about Thomas Kincade,most people may not know Thomas Kincade,but he's the painter of light Thomas painter behind our couch in our house.And I don't know if you know the back story,Thomas Kincade.I mean,he,he was really in a really bad situation growing up,right?Very poor.Um Anyway,his,his transcending the way he overcame that was by drawing and painting.My reason for bringing it up is that he started painting these Hollywood sets and,and painting landscapes and somebody saw him painting one day on the street and said,wow,that's,that's amazing.I I can help sell that.And it's when the creator met the salesman.And so they started,you know,selling things and then it became the fact that he was at a wedding one time and he sat next to somebody that said,what,what are you doing?He's like,well,I'm a painter and they're like,well,you know,how are you doing?Who was running your business?And it's when the,the creator who had a salesman met the businessman and tied it all together and he became the first billion dollar commercial artist as a result.It all started with that.But my point is this,that,that then it ended.Yeah.And unfortunately tragically,yeah,absolutely.But the,the,the point is the point,the point is um business,business aspect and what happened was he got,well,and then he got taken to the cleaners like it was a bad deal because they were running the kin cake galleries and then he ended up having to buy,yeah,he had,he had to buy it back and then,yeah.So,but the point is the business side of it and the protection of that.I mean,he didn't.Yeah.And it's all he wanted to create.That's all you wanted to do.And it's a whole different skill set.I'm so glad you're bringing this up because this is crucial for people listening out there that the creative people,the storytellers um you need someone with a business mindset that understands these things because it's a whole different skill set uh to do this and,and like you can go back in history and most inventors died poppers because they weren't,they weren't good business people.They were,they were creatives and they were creating things and they were inventing things and they usually get screwed because someone with a business mindset comes in and like,man,I can make a ton of money on that and they,they offer him the moon and they,they cut him a bad deal.And,uh,you know,I mean,you could,you could list them like Eli Whitney Tesla on and on and on or they didn't protect their IP,didn't we talking about today?Talking about is a great example of someone that just wanted to give because there's two sides to the coin here.You've got the side of securing and protecting your IP.But there's a huge community of open source,for example,which is all about giving and what happens when you give other people add to that art,right?So say,for example,I write a small program and I,I put it up on,get up and I said,look here,download this and,and,and,and add to it and,and all of a sudden that becomes something even more amazing too.So I'm not just saying secure,everything that you do there,there's other components to life where giving is good and giving to the community.There are certain things that you should give because for the for the betterment of the world if you do give them and Tesla tried to do that many times and I,we won't mention any names of who made that into a service.But um the world would be a different place if Nikolai Tesla,you know,got what he wanted.You work for Thomas Edison.I didn't say that.A I Joseph just said Thomas Edison,you're already,you're already dead.You can say that.That's all right.I'm already dead.You can,you can't do anything to me.So for our listeners,protecting IP comes in all different fashions.It comes with securing the content across the board,social online.But also like you just said,though,there is a time to give it away,there is a time to give something away.Yes,definitely.I mean,if you think that it's bigger than you and it's bigger,you know,and,and other,and where other people can add to it,right?Because trying to negotiate that into contracts and it's like,oh you created this piece and this piece,it becomes such a headache.It's,it's probably just as easy to say,I'm gonna make this open source and I,and I want the ability to be able to use this.I'm using technology as an example.I wanna be able to use that technology for in my business and it becomes open source.Wordpress is a prime example of that.That's a word that's an open source application which many,many developers have have worked on.So I have a question back to one of the original questions.Does it really matter?I mean,even if I go through all this of protecting,of,of solidifying,you know,making sure my domain URL all these things are are in tech.Uh does it matter?Why does it matter uh in the end for something like this?It is part of the value as mentioned,you know,in Bill's book,he talked about the value of that.But how,how do we assure that it is still protected?So here this is my,are you if you're asking me personally as I,I'm only asking you professionally,but yeah.Ok.If you want to answer it personally,go ahead.Well,that's the same thing.I mean,you know what you see is what you get,I'm sorry.Uh I think protecting it and one of the thing,you know,Steve was talking about,uh,you know,securing the rights and protecting you can still give people access to your protective IP and you know,yeah,and you want to,but,but you have like you,then you have the say and the thing is people are still gonna steal like Picasso's quote,you know,people are still gonna steal.And uh,well,we were ok,we were talking to uh Dave cooler from,from full house and Dave was,we were having breakfast with him and he said,uh he goes,you know,I tried to,I,I actually copyrighted that.Cut it out,you know,his,his signature move with the scissors and,yeah,they cut it out,look up,cut it out.You'll know exactly what we're talking about.But,um,he said so many people have used it on memes and this and that.It's like,you know,it's,it's copyrighted,it's protected but people steal it all the time.So then you have to make a decision is like,you know,is it worth chasing everyone or sending cease and desist letters?Probably not.But um that doesn't mean um you shouldn't protect it because it's just,it's just a good business practice to have it protected.So many people like all,all the images you see online,you know,most of those are rights protected and people use them all the time um illegally,like you could,you could pursue that and most people who put pictures up online,if you ask for permission,they would give you permission to use it.Yeah.And there's non royalty aspects of images and music,but there's also the royalty aspect of it.I mean,I dealt with this with,with my book from glory days because we had the images of the four Detroit teams,the Pistons Tigers,red Wings and lions.And that I gotta tell you that was a quite a experience in learning process because of the licensing with each of those jerseys,right?We had a picture of each jersey in the front of the cover.And,and to be honest,one of the most difficult was that old English tea from the Detroit Tigers because the Detroit Tigers do not own that.That's owned by major league baseball properties incorporated in New York City.And we had to go about three months back and forth with legal paperwork and they literally want us to have a,um,$4 million liability policy on the book.And I'm like,what somebody gonna get a paper cut and sue major league baseball.But literally,so we went back and forth for a while.And finally,they were like,well,you know,you have,uh,heirs and omissions to the publisher,right on the,yeah,of course,they said,all right.Well,let's cut the,the 5 $4 million liability policy,but you still have to sign this six page licensing agreement that's very strict about what you can do and can't do with that image.And so my point is this that they,that,you know,you talk about supports.It was one of our previous conversations,an episode,but sports have a huge IP that they protect and they're marketing monsters and their,and their merchandise and you have to prove authenticity of those merchandise.I mean,like if something is signed like a helmet or a shirt,you normally comes with a certificate that says this is authentic,right?So authenticity is a major part of securing IP and IP can be a shirt as soon as I sign or a ball and it says it's got to have the official license,property of whatever,you know,the tag those tags are on there.Well,so Steve,you've got a story about the uh hero's journey so that the,the series we're working on with the uh the black musical artists and the name Hero's Journey.Uh You got a letter,we got a letter from uh from the Joseph Campbell.Found.Correct?Yeah.So Joseph Campbell,for those that don't know,is uh a mythologist who uh coined the term the hero's journey.And he,he kind of came up with the model for the progression of the hero's journey,um uh probably like 50 years ago.So now it's owned by a non-profit foundation,but go ahead.Yeah,and basically said,they said,listen,you can use Hero's journey.The series as long as you're not referring to,I think it's a 17 step process of heroes,different,yeah,different,different stages.But that's basically what they were saying.So,um we wrote a letter and my attorney wrote a letter back and said,no,we're not referring to that at all.We're just using the name Hero's journey because these musicians are going on a hero's journey and it's a series of,of different artists and you know,that type of thing.And um immediately they sent back a letter and said,fine,go ahead.Yeah.So that's how easy it can become.But what ha when bad things happen is when you don't do that and you don't try to,you know,do it the right way and you just take and that's what a lot of people do.Like you,you guys were talking about,people take images and they do that and then you're gonna get yourself into trouble.Someone's gonna come after you,right?So it's,it's not about um being litigious or like,you know,when we began,it's like it's not about suing people.It's just about sound business practices.And if you believe that your intellectual property,that the,your creative assets have value,it's important that you protect them.I think that's,you know,that's really the,the simple message,uh the simple message.That's the story.Yeah,that's the story and you're sticking to it.So Steve just ended the whole episode.No closure needed at this point.There you go.So uh yeah,but we,but I can't leave it at that.So yeah,so wrap up.So like,you know,from your personal experience,you know,protecting your story,how important is it and why should you do it?Um Protecting your story is the most as we,we always say,we don't,you don't protect your story.Someone else is gonna take your story for you.It's that simple and you got all the lines today.Well,you've taught me well.That's sweet.And I love your pink shirt.Yeah,for me,I think the biggest thing in the takeaway is that we have all ideas.We all have ideas,right?We all have ideas that we create and,but I think one of the biggest things is I don't know what my idea might become tomorrow and to be safe,to protect that idea today because you don't know what's gonna come tomorrow.I didn't know that my book was gonna turn into a TV show to turn in all these other aspects into trans media after this,right?Which it has and it will continue to morph into.And so protecting that I think is really important because,you know,having,having that hindsight now,I can see it,but at that time I did.And so that's why it's important to say,boy,take the time to research,collect and do.What's the other thing that Bill said,protect,protect,right?So those three aspects very important and I'll just,I'll just echo that before we,before we wrap up,just going through that process,it's gonna change the way you think about the things that you're creating.Uh to,to me,it really kind of codifies and solidifies a lot of creative ideas and really it forces you by going through that through that process of research,collect and protect into,into really looking at the broader picture and pulling that thread all the way through.So um if any of you out there want more information,we highly recommend.Uh So Bill Honaker also known as the IP Guy,you can go to IP guy dot com.He's got some really good free content there and information about securing your story and securing your IP.So we highly recommend that.And uh that's a good one,guys.Thank you.And this is protected.Our,our,our podcast is protected.This is under,has a trademark on that too.Take care everyone.
 
 
 

You’re a Real Sport

Athletes and their Tales of Growth and Change
Sports is the ultimate serial story that attracts an audience from all walks of life. It’s not only the singular wins that keep fans engaged and invested. The stories of the teams and players woven through the years keep us invested and connected at a deeper level.
Our guest, Douglas Eric Smith is a Canadian former professional ice hockey player who played for the Los Angeles Kings, Buffalo Sabres, Edmonton Oilers, Vancouver Canucks and Pittsburgh Penguins over the course of his career. He was selected second overall in the 1981 NHL Entry Draft.
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Well,welcome everyone to folk tellers stories,be shared podcast.I am Joseph Bastian and here with my,oh,no,it's a Spanish day.It's si Kurt David Stephen Sadler and we're happy to have you here uh,on this episode entitled,you're a real sport.We're gonna talk to athletes and talk about tales of growth and change.So to tee this up,uh we're gonna have uh Doug Smith on later.Doug is a former NHL hockey player and he's a good friend of Kurt.And um we're gonna,he's got an incredible story to share with us.So,uh I would don't wanna steal Kurt's Thunder,but um so to,to kind of open us up,I,I always like to start with a quote from some people to kind of get our thoughts around this.And so,so our theme now is like sports is story.And I know in another episode we were talking about,we touched on this a little bit with uh sports and myth as a mythological heroes and heroes and things like that,but just listen to this and like take some so time with this.So this is from X it was uh an article written in Forbes magazine and they said uh sports is the ultimate serial story that attracts an audience from all walks of life.It's not only the singular wins that keep the fans engaged and invested the stories of the teams and the players woven through the years,keep us invested and connected at a deeper level.So like let that soak in because one of one of the things that I wanted to pull you guys into is,you know,I read this book um called the Warrior ethos.And it was all about how warriors and how soldiers think and what I don't think a lot of people know about,you know,the history of a lot of sports is sports started as um practice for war.Like a lot of these earlier,earlier cultures when they weren't fighting,they had to keep in practice.So they would play games and they would,you know,they would play war games and they would have competitions and things like that.And so a lot of the sports that we have today,I mean,that's kind of the genesis and there's some,I just wanted to read a quick thing and then tee this up to you guys because I know you're gonna have a lot to say about this.So in the warriors ethos,they say um warrior's ethos,the warriors ethos dictates not just how a warrior should behave towards his enemies,but also how he should relate to his people and overcome his own weaknesses.It is a philosophy that must balance the encouragement of active aggression with voluntary self-restraint.This tension lies at the core of the warrior ethos.And these are the 33 sort of tenants of the warriors ethos honor the way of death.The highest duty is to the people and who sweats more in practice,bleeds less in war.Now,think about what that,you know,and an athlete's mindset.Kurt,you,you know,you actually are athlete at the highest level,the highest professional level,you know,how does that resonate with you?Yeah,I think one of the things I always have to qualify is that,you know,my,my career was pale in comparison to a lot of the hall of fame,all star world champion athletes that I sit on with today.However,one of the things that,that struck me as you was reading these things was,I think about,I don't know if it was the Aztecs or,or which tribe it was,but they used to actually have sporting games in which the losing team was put to death.I mean,literally,and,and so when I read that first,uh at,at attribute about honor of the way of death,I mean,it truly was for,for that game.I mean,you know,we talk about winning and losing today and it's like,oh,you didn't get the trophy.But,uh,you know,for those tribes or during that time it was literally,or you would be put to death if you didn't win.Yeah.So,and that's really,yeah,the stakes were high,right?Like we think the stakes are high now.But,you know,it,I,I always think,and we've all played sports at,at,at different levels and you know why you,why you get into sports,why some people get into team sports,individual sports?Uh,you know,what's,what's the driver there,Steve,what do you think the driver of,why people get into sports?Yeah.Why do people get into sports competition?I mean,it's,it's built into our nature to want to compete,right?But there's also people get into different kinds of sports.You can't lump all sports together like a tennis player versus like a soccer player or a hockey player.You're talking in team sports versus individual sports.So those are different reasons why people get into sports.Actually,I played badminton when I was in high school and I always gravitated towards playing singles and it became very much of an individual sport.But I also played other team sports as well.Like today,for example,I played hockey,uh,before I got here,that's why every time I come and do this podcast,I'm tired.But today I've ate enough bananas to try and have enough energy to be able to,uh,before you came I did.Yeah,I got all the showers hot for everybody.Ok,great.Thanks for that image.Yeah,no problem.But,um,but you,you mentioned something about the,the war warrior ethos.I mean,what is ethos?I mean,what is it?Yeah.Well,ethos or ethics or a,a set of beliefs,that's really what it is.So,like the,like what you live by?So honor the way of death.I mean,what does that mean?The the highest duty is to the people and who sweats more in practice,bleeds less and more?I mean,that's some pretty,pretty heavy duty stuff.So I have to say something at this point because it's changed throughout the years,throughout the,the hundreds of years,right?Of,of when sports been around,I mean,you think about the Greeks,you think about the Olympics,you know,the things that have happened throughout the hundreds of years and,and that ethos I think has changed from your description because,you know,more and more and this is one of the things that get me is this participation award,right?In other words,everybody's a winner.Well,you know,in a certain capacity,yeah,for competing,you are a winner.Absolutely.But there is only one winner,right?II I always said this as a player and then as a coach that literally one team finishes a season on a win,think about that for any sport,one team finishes on a win.So what,what are the implications of that in,in life?That,in other words,not everybody wins,right?You,you have to learn how to win,you have to learn how to lose.But the goal is to try to win,right?To try to be the best you can be the,you know,I love John Wooden's philosophy because he was at UCLA.I think it was 18 years before he won his first championship and then he had a slew after that,right.He still holds the record as a coach.But uh the point is that his focus as a coach for the players was we're not focused on what the score is.We're gonna focus on what the best is as a team.In other words,how do we play as a team?What is the best we can do as a team?Because that's our focus.We're gonna play teams that are better for us or better than us and we're gonna play teams that we're better than,but when maybe we don't play as good,so they're gonna beat us by the score.So our focus is playing the best we can.Yeah,and that,that's really interesting.And Steve I,this goes back to your point about,you know,that there's the individual performance and then there's the team performance and some people select a sport because they like the individual performance and some like being in a team environment.But um,you know,what's the,how does that play?Well,it goes back to that,the word that you're using before the ethos,right?Being a distinguishing character with moral nature and guiding beliefs is that even does that even exist anymore?A lot of,a lot of,a lot of characters,but look at everything that's going on over the last three years even.Right?I mean,politicians,medical,general sports.Where is the ethos?Where is it gone?Well,and that's the individual component to it.So if you break down the individual component,then how can you ever have a solid team without,without having the individual component?And obviously you need many warrior ethos to create a team,a team sport.Yeah,I think,I think there's a lot to unpack in there because when you think the original,like original sports were,it was practiced for war.So the warrior ethos that we were just talking about Kurt,I think you're right.It has changed because it's not about war now and now sports are,I mean,there's the whole competitive factor and there's all the life lessons but it's a business and don't take me wrong.I mean,when you look at the highest level of sports,I mean,it certainly is like a battle out there because people are trying to win,right?I mean,bottom line is you,you play for a Super Bowl,you're trying to win that Super bowl,right?And you can get hurt.Well,that's every day,right?And practice or,you know,walking to the practice field.I mean,you can get hurt.And so,but literally,I think,you know,the competitive spirit is still there,but it's nowhere near what it used to be,in my opinion.So guys,this is a really good time to bring our guest in uh Doug Smith,he's a former uh NHL player.Uh and who's been his story is just incredible.And Kurt,I know he's a friend of yours.So,why don't you uh you bring Doug in and,and uh let's get him in the conversation.Yeah.Doug,great to have you on the show.Uh uh We're excited about talking about your change and,and uh your growth.Let's talk about that early day.You went from Ottawa Canada to the second draft pick in the NHL to the L A Kings,right?Let's,let's start from there and take it forward from there if you don't mind.Well,I grew up on the Ottawa River.If you,if you saw where I was right now,I'm sitting on the edge of the Ottawa River.Um Still,I've lived,lived there for a long time and I grew up learning how to skate there.And across the street from our house,there was the outdoor rink.So I spent most of my childhood uh going back and forth from my house to the outdoor rink or to the river on skate guards.So that,that,that was my uh ear early childhood and,and,and I,it,it got me to the NHL.So I arrived in the NHL when I was uh 18 years,two weeks old as the youngest player ever drafted by the Los Angeles Kings at that time,uh it was the first year of the 18 year old draft.So Dale Howard Chuck went first,I went second.Bobby Carpenter went third and of course,Ron Francis went forth and what a career he had.Yeah.Yeah.So 18 years old from Ottawa,Canada L A.What was that like for you?Well,I did what,every eighteen-year-old boy would do when he arrives in L A with a lot of money.You go to a car dealership.It was probably a Porsche dealership back then.It,it was a Porsche dealership that I went to.Yeah.And I went for my first test drive in a Porsche and driven by a guy who used to race for the Finnish Porsche team.And uh I got out of the car and I gave him all my money.I didn't care how much it cost.It was,it,it was something like I had never experienced before and,and,and that,that was sort of the way it was for that first year in Los Angeles.Well,imagine an 18 year old if you have kids right now.Imagine what that would be like,like the ups and downs.Uh,you know,a lot of good times,a lot of amazing times,a lot of memories,a lot of things I can't remember about it.I'm picturing Tom Cruise in risky business.That's what I'm picturing.Well,Harrison,Fortnite,Harrison Ford and I played pool together at a party one time.Uh,uh,Michael J Fox was a big fan.He was always there.Um,you,you can name a,a star Jack Nicholson was a regular at the games.So,so it was,it was really a surreal environment.I was injected into,at a very young age,into a world that,that wasn't really real if you know what I mean?What do you mean by that wasn't real for you?I mean,well,it's just a big city and,and the dangers and,and my lack of awareness I had,I had no awareness whatsoever.So I would pick up Hitchhikers in L A at that time that you are brave.I was Rob.I know I was such a nice guy,you know,that typical Canadian guy.But I,and then I,I did it until I got robbed.Yeah.And then I stopped doing it.So Doug did,did you,well when you were there,did,did anyone take you under,under their wing?I mean,was there any other veteran player or anyone that,you know,had a similar background from you that that saw that you kind of,you were a young guy out in the wilderness and,and,and took pity on you.I,I was an unbearable 18 year old is what I was.Uh it would have been hard for anybody to take me into their wing,Dave Taylor,you know,gave it a shot and uh if you guys,you know,gave it a shot,but really the responsibility of the team is to put supporters in place today.Today,a guy like Conor and David would have six supporters including a professional chef and those supporters would,would manage and take care of things.Uh that,that,that the player just doesn't do and isn't good at,right?They're good at playing hockey.They didn't,they didn't have that system at the time.Like it was dog eat dog and,and there are many times in practice where it was set up,fights were set up uh you know,just to,just to teach you a lesson if you know what I mean?Yeah.Well,and,and Doug,I've heard you say before,that was like a free fall for you and basically you were rewarded for being out of control.Yeah,there was there,there,there was no rewards for not losing emotional control.Yeah,the the when you,when you got into a fight,you went to the penny box,came back to the bench,you know how it was,right?Everybody was supporting your behavior and,and I had just done that since I was 67 years old.So I,I didn't,I,I didn't know any different.How,how was I supposed to know any different?We,we grow based on our reward systems,right?And two minutes isn't very long.Yeah,I get anyway.So,so do I,I have a,I have a question.So,so Steve was talking,we were talking before you came about the warrior ethos and ethos and a code of ethics among uh among warriors,uh which a athletes really align with,um historically,did you find uh at that level of play that there was um a code of ethics among the players or was it,was it really just a free for all?No,it was slow down in training camp or,or,you know,we're gonna deal with you,right?Like you guys used to go to training camp out of shape to get in shape,right?And,and II,I arrived in training camp in Victoria in shape and I was,I was told and threatened and like,because I,I just wanted to go,right.I was just a racehorse ready to go.But,you know,at that time there,there was very little,you know,control at the top.It's like let the captain and the uh you know,in the dressing room take care of the guys,right?That,that's just the way it was.Uh I'm not blaming the way it was.Uh,you know,I survived in that environment and uh things have changed.So,you know,but I had to change it.That,that,that system left me sitting there on the,you know,uh with my career over with,with the same behaviors as I had when I had in the game.Well,let's talk about some of those changes.What were some of the changes that you experienced?I mean,from that first day in L A forum,right?That was your office L A forum to your journey through the NHL.Talk about those changes.Well,I,I went from Los Angeles finally,I like,I,I've been trying to get traded for a couple of years and finally,Scotty Bowman traded for me.I arrived in a,in,in Buffalo,uh beaten up,uh psychologically and emotionally just from the journey in L A and I scored 13 seconds into my first game and the team had lost five in a row and we won five in a row when I arrived and I ended up,you know,I'm on the top line in the National Hockey League 27 points between me and my two wingers in five games.We won five games in a row and I went from a healthy scratch,really,like not,not being able to function emotionally in L A to,to the top line in the National hockey league,you know,in,in 2.5 weeks and it had nothing to do with my physical ability.Nothing.What did it have to do with it?I had to do with my emotional and,and my,my mental ability at the time,you know,I,I was sitting in the press box in L A like I just,I,I was just so frustrated and angry and confused and,and,and then I got traded and all of a sudden,I'm on the top line in the national hockey league,like within a couple of weeks and,and,and it was,it wasn't a physical thing.It was a mental thing.It was an emotional thing for me that,you know,I just needed that change to,to,to wake myself up again and to get started again because I,I knew I could do it.I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.Well,and you're one of the amazing draft picks that,you know,a lot of,there's a lot of draft picks that get drafted high and it just kind of disappear and never reappear again,but you were able to reappear again,you know,under Scotty Bowman.And one of the things that happened though was you had even more change after that,right?You,you continue to play in HL but then you had a very sudden change in your life that occurred.Um What can you tell us about that?It,it was professional games.607 man.I,I was so fortunate to play 607 professional hockey games,but I went head first full speed into the end boards and I shattered the 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae in my neck and everything stopped.My,my,my whole world just came to a sudden stop.And at that second,I was conscious,I went from trying to be the best in the world to trying to be the best for the world because of what I saw what I saw on the ice was what wasn't all the big goals that I scored.And the comebacks that we made it,it was the times I didn't show up and it was the times that I had hurt people.That's what I saw that that was sort of the last second,the closest I've been to death.And that's what I saw fully conscious.It's interesting because you hear about a lot of conversations where people have these experiences and,and they feel or see things you felt that that's what you felt very strongly.Give a vis a visual too for the people listening because you were laying on the ice and,and like you said,you'd chatter four and five and your gloves were underneath your face and that was the only thing supporting your neck at that point.Yeah.And you can see the video on uh on my website and you know,it,it,I went pile driver head first,my neck was broken in 200 places.My,the ligaments in my neck were torn,but I landed on the ice with my hand on my gloves,my chin on my gloves and I stayed in that position for 6.5 hours as they uh x-rayed,you know,l spine and T spine.And then they,they found the,the shattered vertebrae at,at c spine.And,and so,you know,my whole thing was,what am I gonna do with my little kids?My,my,I had two little girls at the time and,and so,you know,my life got flipped on its head and,and,and we started again and much of my work today that I do today that I,that I share with the world that I help people with,with,you know,uh to be happier and to be more effective,that's where it all came from.It came from that sudden impact that happened to me.I was just one of the fortunate ones that,that survived it.So doug,were you conscious the whole time after the impact?Yes.And what was,what was going through your mind like you can?So you,you knew something was wrong,what was going through your mind at that time?Oh,just to eat every ounce of effort was um in keeping still.Um and dealing with the extraordinary uh amount of,of pain like the,the the pain through,through my system wasn't like normal orthopedic pain when you,you know,like bang your arm or cut yourself or it,it,it,it was coming from the inside and,and,and so they had me on so much morphine for a day and a half that they had to,my heart would stop and they'd have to,they,they,it would,my heart rate would drop to 25 30 beats a minute and they'd have to wake me up.So my heart didn't stop every,you know,every little while.So they,so they had to give me enough morphine that it wouldn't kill me,but just keep me right on the edge.So,so that I could,and,and,and I still was Laing in the bed,you know,shaking,shaking,you know,it's incredible.Um,so in the,in the aftermath,were you paralyzed?Yeah,I was,uh,I,in the third surgery.So there was three surgeries that took place.Um,and in the third surgery,things fell apart and I woke up and I see you,uh,a quadriplegic.So I had no arms,no legs,no bladder,no bowels.And we were red.What most people in that situation are,are read.Um,but,you know,we,we don't see you being able to get better after this.So,so that was one of the most difficult times in,in,in my wife's life because she had to make a decision and you know,what,what is she gonna do is she gonna buy in to,to what the,the,the medical system is telling her right now or is,or are we just gonna get on our horse?Get me out of here and get on our horse and,you know,she,she took the reins for,uh,three years,22 to 3 years with two with two little.Sounds like a good woman.You married 36 36 years this coming August.Well,and,and to go from a pro ale physical pro athlete to a quadriplegic with nothing from the neck on down.I mean,and,and she was a seminal moment.There was a seminal moment that she had confronted you about this,right?Because you were despondent upset.Um You know,like you said,you had nothing from the neck on down,but she was,she got in your face really is kind of what happened,right?You want to explain that a little bit more.Well,the way she got in my face was not letting me,yeah,get into the tough subjects are for me to talk about not,not letting me like end it.So,so,you know,the only one that was,that I could ask for help was her.But um so I did and,and,and,and she said no,and she had that talk with me and the,you know,down the hall in the in the hospital and,and that was really the day things sort of,you know,that,that was the day things turned around when,when she gave me that hard.No.And you were looking to have her assist you right at that time too.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah,I just,I was,I wasn't,I was,I,I wasn't into,uh,living in a nightmare when you suffer a spinal cord injury when you're awake.It's,you're,you're,you're in in hell,right?The only,the only time you're happy or peaceful is when you're asleep or you know,when you're in between asleep and,and,and uh and awake,but when you're awake,you're,you're,you're living in hell.So,and,and it was basically that she loved you.They have two beautiful daughters that love you and that was the moment that changed your thinking,your attitude.Yeah.Yeah.The way that she put it,uh you know,her commitment to,to,to be there.Um She,she at,at that time,I mean,she could have just said forget it,pack your bags and you know,she goes,yeah,so,so doug you,you came out on the other side and now this has become a calling for you.What?So what's this?You talk to us a little bit about what it was like coming out.You,you,you decided,you know,you made a,you made a life decision and you know what's happened since then and what's this new calling of yours?Well,you know,I,I went to work to learn how to do everything again.And,and then uh I ran a couple of businesses in the technology sector.I ended up building a manufacturing company.Uh I,that was taken over by uh by my brother-in-law out in Alberta.And then I sat down for the first time in my life and said,I,I gotta,I gotta write this down.I gotta take all the journals because I've been journaling when I was uh when I was paralyzed.So I took all my journals and I took everything that out of them that was worthwhile and,and created a book called Thriving In Transition.And,and it's a,it,it's how to turn adversity into the opportunity of a lifetime and,and,and it's full of the pictures.So I put all my pictures and the story of my,of my hockey career together.And then I was approached by the medical community and they asked whether I wanted to marry up my story with the,you know,what's happening with respect to trauma and our new awareness,with respect to trauma and healing.And I said,for sure.And,and we went,we sat back down again in a chair for another 18 months and,and we wrote the Trauma Code and that became a huge success and it gave people a systematic approach to dealing with their,with their uh cognitive mental issues,stress,um gaining happiness,it's all related,right?All this stuff is related.So,that's,that's incredible.That's incredible where it came from.It's sort of,I,I,it sort of laid out,uh,what I had seen when I broke my neck.Wow.You know,it's interesting when we were talking about the,uh,the warrior ethos,it seems like your,the worry ethos journey for you started after your injury.I mean,you had one before in the NHL.And obviously,you know,you were a warrior,you're a great hockey player,but where you really shine showing your colors is the warrior ethos that,that came after that,which is just is just,it's amazing.Absolutely amazing story.We,we all,we all,we all need to wake up and I've learned this,we're working with a lot of people who are in big trouble,but we all need a wake up call,an awareness call,right?And the awareness,the awareness that I've found is is that your subconscious mind controls you,it controls 95% of your human functioning.We know that from a medical standpoint and,and,and the subconscious brain only has three priorities.It's like an £800 gorilla.It can help you a lot,but it can hurt you a lot.And its three priorities are meeting basic needs,clarity of thought and helping other people.Exactly.So those are the only three priorities.This £800 gorilla has that you can leverage that you,you probably aren't leveraging to the,to the max that you can.And if,if you've got trauma in your life,specifically emotional trauma that you can't see and it's invisible,your subconscious brain is aware of it.It's hurting you,it's hurting your performance.So,so if you could begin to unwind that by understanding that your subconscious is the one that's in control and it has those three priorities.What happens is you unwind from trauma,it doesn't matter what the trauma is.You,you begin,you begin to unwind and deal with it because you got a big support friend beside you,your £800 gorilla,your subconscious brain.Well,and doug you,you talk a lot about trauma and what you speak on now.In fact,I think one of the steps that,that I didn't hear mention was that you are walking again now,right?I mean,that's,you've gone through therapy,you've gone through all sorts of um experimental as well as other therapies and,and now you're walking again,best selling author and,and speaker throughout Canada.Um I know that you speak on trauma and one of the things you talk about is the accumulative trauma,accumulative emotional trauma that that's the,the,the,the uh carbon monoxide that people don't smell and don't notice,but it's killing them as a result.Yeah,it's a ticking time bomb.I call it.I,I don't call it that all the time because that's big scary words.But,but that's the ticking time bomb.Not,not just for us individually but uh for us as a society and a community because,because that cumulative emotional trauma is,is not detected by you unless you're using a system to detect it.It's like,like you said,Kurt,very good uh carbon monoxide.If you have a detector,you're fine,right?You won't go to sleep.Uh But with cumulative emotional trauma,like what I created was a detector for it.And uh so you don't go to sleep because it'll take over your life,it'll destroy your life.It'll take all your happiness away.You'll actually,you'll back into the jail cell that you made for yourself and you'll throw you,you'll lock the door from the outside and you'll throw the key outside the jail cell.It,that,that's what cumulative emotional trauma will do to you if you allow it.That's if you don't manage it.Yeah,Doug Doug,this is uh you,you have an incredible story and we feel really lucky and blessed that you,that you shared that with us.I mean,this is really what you shared today is,it's a journey of,of enlightenment you've been through,you know,you've kind of been through hell and back and,you know,before we close,is there any sort of like parting thought?You know,you had talked about,you know,the three things that,that,that motivate you and,and are your,your mission now,um you know,if someone's going through struggling through change and transition,um what would you,you know,kind of recommend?What's your like big piece of advice?Look,look at every model you can on,on building happiness,you know,the psychological models by,you know,victor like by mate and,you know,a lot,a lot of other uh in,in incredible uh people and minds and,and technology that are gonna weave this together for us.You know,we're not just gonna get the biomarkers for Alzheimer's,we're gonna get a,we,we're gonna get a more refined system that you could use so that you can be happier and healthier and more prosperous because that's what we're after,right?And,and that,and,and that's what I'm trying to give to people.Now.We're looking at trauma,but we have to look at trauma because it's the antithesis of performance,but it's on the same spectrum,right?So,so the recovery after physical injury and,and,and the achievement of extremely high performance is on the same spectrum.So the behaviors to,to,to recover after serious traumatic injury and to get to the NHL the behaviors and is,are the same and the priorities are the same.That's what I want to get across.It seems trauma is the key to change too.It's,it's powerful,it's key.It's a key.It's an awareness though.Right.That's the,that's the awareness is that,is that you,your subconscious is soaking up this trauma right now and if you don't manage it,if you don't help your subconscious manage it,it's gonna stomp all over you or it's not gonna help you do something that you might need a lot of help with.Right.Right.That's,that's powerful.It's a powerful stuff.It's a powerful message.Doug uh where can people learn more about the good work that you're doing?Oh Doug Smith performance dot com.If you type in Doug Smith NHL anywhere like I,I'm,I'm uh optimized.I got a course on there.I've got uh I've got new meditations being built by another company out of Alberta.They're the first two you can get,you can get the first meditation on awareness.OK?And if you want awareness,grab this meditation,it's at Dougy performance dot com slash relax slash relax and you can download it for free.There,there's,there's another eight coming before Christmas.But I tell you,I challenge you to stay awake through the uh through the meditation because I did for the first six times.I listened to it.I,I didn't hear the end.So,you know,good luck.Well,Steve really needs that because he's,he's,he,I just got off the ice before he got here.So,and I need it.I just got off the Ice.Are you,you still play?Oh,well,I was playing up until,uh,two years ago with Chris Neil and Chris Phillips.And,yeah,all the guys on the sens alumni,I founded the Sis alumni in the,in 1992.Awesome.Awesome.Yeah.And,and,and so I got back to,to playing,um,at almost the same level.Now.I have,I have some deficits in my right side,but mostly extension deficits in my hand.But I'm a,I'm a right handed shot.So that hand is on the bottom of the stick.So I had no problem that that's,that's excellent.Beautiful.Well,Doug,very,very fortunate.Very fortunate.Doug,thanks so much for being on today.We really appreciate it and uh we'll definitely check out uh more of the work that you're doing and continued success and same to you guys.Thanks a lot for having me on today.Have a wonderful day,guys.Take care.Pleasure,Doug Doug,wow,guys.That was powerful.That was a really,I mean,it gave me goose bumps all over.I mean,for what reason?What was it that impacted me?Ok.So what,what I wrote down?Oh,sorry,I didn't mean to interrupt you,Steve.I kind of did,but I did,go ahead.Well,I,I kind of went,I didn't go through something that extreme,but I did almost leave this earth back in 2015.So I can relate to the fact where you've had enough.And when he said that it's like you get choked.I got choked up about it.I'm like this,that's an emotional thing.And there,there,it becomes a point where you,where you have to overcome that.And it's like,and having,you know,having his wife there,just like I had my wife there.You know,that was the emotional moment because without Laurie,I wouldn't have moved forward,right?And you have to,and that's really when that warrior ethos kicks back in,it says you are going to fight,you're not just gonna lay down,it's time,it's time to move on,it's time to rise.Yeah.What's really interesting about Doug's story is you,you know,we,we focus on the athlete part so much with,with people.We don't focus on his journey that uh the level of overcoming to become a pro athlete is,is substantial,but it's got to be even more substantial from where he was with that,the,the vertebrae and in this quadriplegic state,I mean,I can't,I,I can't even imagine that,that,that getting to the level of pro athletes,but then overcoming that and doing what he's doing today,that's even more monumental than being a pro athlete in my opinion.And so the culmination of that,what I wrote down because I'm always thinking of,you know,this podcast is about storytelling like,so,and we're talking about sports and storytelling and,and transition and change.Um So what does this have to do with storytelling?And what I wrote down was sports is drama.There's drama in sports stories and,and I'm listening to Doug and I'm like,we're getting chills and you're getting emotional.It's like this is why people are drawn to the stories in sports because there's an intrinsic drama and really,I mean,it's the humanity in it.I mean,like,you know,one of the things that we've talked about in this podcast is um great stories.Uh you connect with,you engage with them because you see yourself in the characters or in the scenarios.I mean,Steve was just talking about that and I mean,this is manifesting in this podcast,Doug comes on and it's like,we're like feeling it because it's like,oh my God,I,I went through something similar.I had a family member that went through something similar and,you know,just the way he,he told the story,it's like we're like connecting to that.And there's like,I mean,that's to me,like I,what I wrote,I wrote sports is drama.This is,I mean,it was a dramatic story that he just told thousands of people saw that event.Obviously,it was televised.I mean,you still can pull up the video as he said,I'm sure it's on youtube,right?It is,you can see the actual impact of when that happened,I think,I believe it's on his website as well.You can see the impact when it happens.And so that change.So when you watch something like that live,I mean,the story is happening right in front of you,you're writing the story as that's happening and then that becomes memories.I have so many,that's the thing about sports.I have so many memories that I can think back of,of either playing sports and,or watching a game.And I can literally go back just like music where I can snap right back to that moment in time.And it reminds me,it's like you feel those same emotions,you know.Well,think about this too.You know,it's gonna date me.But the ABC wide world of sports,the opening,right,the thrill of victory and the agony and they show that skier jumper just demolished right at the bottom of the jump and you want to look,but it's like,oh,I wanna look away but,oh my goodness,look at this.And it's the drama that you just mentioned,Joseph that it's the drama of sports,the,the,the thrill of victory and agony of defeat a of your feet.Oh boy,don't quit your day job.Yeah,I don't quit your day job.But,but I do,I have a day job.That's a good question we have.We're sitting here after this podcast.This is the last day wait a minute.Are we getting paid for?This wasn't supposed to know that?Right.So,so,you know,we're talking about,you know,sports stories and sports is drama.Uh You know,one of the questions we were talking about before is so,you know,we're making human connections with sports,with athletes and with,with the events and the things that happen.It's a human drama.So,is sports a metaphor for life?I,I think there's a lot of things that are really important to me having been around sports my whole life.I mean,I grew up,there was six of us on athletic scholarship,two of us played professionally in my house,so unbelievably competitive,right?Everything we did.But my point is this,that for me at this stage in my life,I've realized that the lessons that I've learned in sports are the most valuable,right?Playing was great.But the lessons that I've learned from playing a sport or playing sports are what are really even more valuable to,but,you know,teamwork,ability to work as a team.Certainly that self-discipline um you know,great working through challenges and difficulties and you know,Doug talked about his major injury.I mean,obviously injuries that we all experience physically emotionally,he talks about uh you know,accumulated emotional trauma and how do we handle that?How do we overcome that?I mean,every athlete that I know that gets injured,their only thought is ok.What do I need to do to rehab this to get back on the field again,get back on the court again.And that's exactly our,our thought pattern after you're done playing sports because it's like,ok,well,I just got knocked down,my business is closed.You know,what do I need to do to get back up to do this again?And so it's that mentality,that is a value and that's why a lot of people look to hire athletes because they know that's kind of an intrinsic in the marrow of our bones.The downside is that we have a hard time letting go of things,right?Because it's in the mirror of our bones never to give up.But there is a time to give up,there is a time to let go.And that's one of the challenges is having that discernment.I know Steven,you talked about discernment and the value of discernment,having that discernment of knowing when to let go of something and when not to let go of something,Doug's story was an immediate let go.He had,he had no choice,right?And so,but for many others in the athletic world,you have to make that decision,right?I think that's a really good point because do Doug's uh it was catastrophic.So there was no like,I don't know,you come back next year.Yeah.No,it's like,yeah,I mean,my,my neck is shattered.And,uh,yeah,this is,it,it's,it's a,it's a game change.How many times have we seen athletes that probably should have let go.Right.They should have moved on and they hung on for a little bit longer,bankrupt their families as a result because they're like trying to stay on and practice and work out.But,uh,you know,it goes back to the drama and it's not just the,the aspect of the fan because we like looking,uh,you know,we see drama in life and we see drama in sports.It's for the athlete themselves,but it's a drama for them as well.And that's tough.It's really tough.Yeah,Steve.What about you?So,you,I mean,I don't believe it's just a metaphor.I mean,sports,they're a substitute for war.I think you guys mentioned that earlier in the podcast.I mean,that's why,you know,look at,take British soccer for an example,right?All of those I have to have,well,you know what?I can't believe.I just said my,my British friends in England would be,I've been over here too long anyway.It's British football.Ok.Every single town,I mean,people just gather around those teams.It's almost a religion.It's like a religion.So,yeah,sports is a metaphor for life.It is life when you deal with,you know,countries like England and that and football and that,I mean,the Lions,I mean,obviously there's fans with the Lions and I'm a Lions fan,I'm a Maple Le fan.Unfortunately,you know,but when you deal with sports,like football in England,it takes it to a whole other level.I used to live in Europe and central Europe and it wasn't,it was not uncommon.Is that a double negative?I'm not sure how to say that.I'm not,not sure Joseph will correct you if you're wrong.Anything relative to wordsmith over here.But,but it,it wasn't uncommon for a fight to break out during a football game,soccer game because the,the supporters,right?They sometimes had to put fences between like the reds and the greens or whatever the team was,right?They were so passionate about their team.I mean,in,in England,I,they have a word for it,right.Which is you guys,have you guys ever seen Green Street Hooligans?What is that?It's a movie.It's a great,it's one of my favorite movies,actually has Elijah Wood in it.He's an American and actually I think he's going to,I think it goes to Harvard.He gets kicked out of school for drugs or something anyways,he ends up in England,he gets sucked into the subculture of English hooligans for,um,I think it's West Ham United is the team,right?And he,he's never been in a fight in his life,right?He's this little guy and all of a sudden he's scrapping,throwing bricks,doing all kinds of,he became a warrior.Became no,you know,the crazy thing about those hooligans is like the people that are in it.You,you would never imagine that they would be in it.We're talking like teachers and doctors and you know,you name it and they all gather at the pub on Sundays and that energy.That's the warrior ethos that goes right through them.And I'm not saying it's a good thing,by the way,you're just,you're hitting on something that I,I think that's really interesting.So,you know,we've been talking about the,you know,the athletes experience and the human drama and,and,and you know why it makes great sports stories.But from the fans perspective,it's,it's a whole different type of storytelling because it's a group dynamic and it's the,it's the,the uh sports as drama for the,for the group.So now it's like the,the,the team dynamic.And uh there's a show like an example being at a game when momentum shifts or something is,I mean,that's a group.Well,here,this is what I was thinking.So like,and that's gonna be a part of it.But um and Steve will start chiming in big time.So uh there's that there's a show that came out,uh it's called Welcome to Wrexham and uh Ryan Reynolds and who's the other guy Rob Delaney.Rob M.So,um,you know,both uh one's from,uh uh uh it's always sunny in Philadelphia and Ryan Reynolds is Deadpool.And so anyway,they bought this,like,Steve will know better,uh,like a,a lower tier team that was an underperforming,but it was like 100 year old team.Yeah,in,in Wales.And,uh,anyway,the whole season is buying the team and,and the town owned the team so they had to buy the team from the town,so they had to be approved.And so it's this whole cultural thing and basically everyone's excited because,you know,these Hollywood stars and what are they really gonna,are they really gonna be part of our culture or is this just kind of a gimmick thing?And so it,it's just really well done and it's all human drama and it's like how the town,even though the team has sucked for years,it's their life,you know,it's like it and they hope against hope,kind of like we've been with the Lions for years.Um,you know,every,every season.But,um,so they,and in,uh and Steve can explain this in uh in British football,which is,I think is really cool.You can be relegated down a league if you underperform and if you overperform,you can,you can go move other leagues.So it would be like the Toledo Hans having a great season and moving um,into,into the,in,into the major leagues.Right.Or the,or the Tigers having a,a crummy one and,and going down.Right.So,it's funny because Wrexham actually compete,competes against the,my grandfather's favorite team,which was Knox County,which is one of the old,actually,it might be the oldest football club in England.And I was watching as that show was moving along.I,I was watching like where the position was and the ranking of Wrexham and where Knotts Knotts County was and they kept both of them were like 121212.And I do believe Wrexham did get relegated up.Right.Yeah,they did.But you're,uh,you're not supposed to know that till,for season two.Way to go.Ok.We've talked about the power of sport as a storytelling medium mechanism.Uh,we're gonna wrap it up in a little bit.But so Steve,you know,what is it about the storytelling power in sports that draws you in?Well,obviously,I mean,everyone likes to see somebody win.I mean,right.I mean,there's enough losses in the world and,and everyone draws around a team and they're wanting to see that win.Um,I have a story,a sports story real quick.Um,I remember in 1993 I was watching the Les Play and they were playing Los Angeles of all teams and it was game seven and if they won,they went to the Stanley Cup and Gretzky ended up cutting one of my favorite hockey players,Dougie Gilmore in the face at the very last few minutes of the game and then didn't get a penalty.I was so upset.I mean,I can,I can pull back those emotions right now,just like the day that that happened.But back in 1993 years ago,a long time ago,and I,I remember almost trying to pick the TV up and throw it out the window because that's what it meant to be a fan of,of Toronto.And so it's those memories,they become those stories and they get ingrained in,in the side of our,our psyche.You know what I mean?I mean,it's,uh,it,it's,it's very,it's very important,um,very powerful but it's funny because I don't remember the wins so much and I always tell my,my team that I,I coach,you know,you're gonna,you learn a little bit from your wins but you learn a hell of a lot from your losses.Yeah.And that's pretty well.Life.All right.What about you?And I've had the fortune of being on both sides of the fence as a player and then as a fan,so to speak,as somebody who watches sports.I think one of the things,if you,if you watch television today,any type of championship,any type of big game,they're always giving back stories.Right.You see,before the game they're giving back stories and I think that's the important part of,ok,you're gonna watch the game,you're gonna watch the PGA tour or whatever it is,but you can hear a back story about a player and why and how,what they had overcome and,you know,we're talking about growth and change and,and,you know,I,I can't think of a better industry where growth and change happens constantly in sports,right?For good and bad reasons,right?There's a lot of change.Uh,you know,that's one of the things I speak on is change and you see it all the time in sports,constant change,you're in,you're out,you're good,you're not good.Um I think one of the best things from today is,is,you know,hearing Doug's story,it's just amazing.And every time,you know,I've heard it multiple times but every time I hear it,it's still impactful,right of what he had overcome and,and the growth and change and,and how he's using that today to make better people.And one of the things that I love about his sound bite,he said it early was that he went from trying to be the best in the world,right?That's your goal as an athlete to be the best in the world to trying to be the best for the world.His accident helped him shift that attitude.Yeah,it's,I think,um,so for me,sports,the,the power of sports is,it's,um,inspirational and aspirational power and like for,for me,um,hope springs eternal.And the thing is even,uh,sports for me has always been a communal thing,something to like,you know,Thanksgiving football with the family and,and all that stuff.And even if your team wasn't doing well that year,there's always,you know,there's always next year.Right.And that's to me,the,the power of sport to be able to lift a community,lift a city,you know,lift yourself,like when things aren't going well in your life,you and your team's doing well,it just seems to make things better.And I think,um,I don't think we'll ever lose that as long as sports and athletes and the teams that we,that we cheer for,uh,represent the human condition and the,yeah,and the community and the triumphs and the failures and everything else,I think as long as that's resonating,um,it will continue to be a powerful thing.We hope we never lose that right now.All right.Good show guys.We'll see you next time.
 

It Ain’t Sex that Sells – It’s Story

Using Storytelling to Sell and Market Anything
What is the difference between Sales and Marketing? Sales is when you go out and try to convince people to buy your product and service. Marketing is when you create such a compelling story that people are drawn to it.
Our guest is Eric La Brecque from Applied Storytelling – a brand strategy firm that uses storytelling to build and communicate brands through story. 
 
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Everyone.Welcome to episode six of the folk Teller storytelling podcast.It Ain't sex that sells people.It's story.And today we have a guest with us uh Eric Labreck from applied storytelling.He's the CEO he is a brand strategy guru and he's brought storytelling into brand marketing.Eric,thanks for being with us.Great to be with you guys.Thank you.And uh we've got uh the other two cohort my cohorts today,adjectives today,the ubiquitous ubiquitous Stephen Sadler and the undulating character.How about that you just mentioned and now you're saying I'm out of here.Are you jealous?No,they all thanks to everyone thought I was undulating.Well,I've been undulating for years.I mean,you were last night,let me tell you,oh my God,this time here as a guest.Sorry,Eric.The first person we've had physically in the room when we were already,you guys are setting my mind in overdrive.I'm thinking well,of sex cells and story cell is storytelling.Sexy.Is it having sex?What,what is it?Ok.Now,I've got to kind of juggle this.Thanks is flowing.So I'll,I'll tee this up and then we'll get rolling.So uh my,my thought for the day is I had a uh a guru of mine.His name is Paul Tobin.I'll have to call him after they say I use this code.So he said,he said,Joseph,you know the difference between sales and marketing.I said,no,I don't know the difference between sales and marketing.He said selling is when you go out and try to convince people to buy your product or service.I'm like,OK,that makes sense.He goes,marketing is when you tell such a compelling story that people are drawn to it and they,yeah,they're drawn and they're drawn to the story.And this is really,you know,Eric,that's,this is kind of your Bailey wig.This is your like your,your whole philosophy on how you get people to be excited about a brand.Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Yeah.Well,for us,first of all,we start with a simple definition.A brand is a story,it's a type of story.Um and it's different from other types of stories and obviously in that you're using it in the marketplace,we talk about brands and we're talking about buying and selling things,right?And also as a form of story,it's really different.Um it's really diffuse,it's told through all kinds of channels at all different times um across time in a different way.And so this diffuseness is a really interesting aspect of it.And that's where the work that we do comes in.If it's so diffuse what ties it all together,you know,and there's,there needs to be some kind of a narrative thread,some kind of starting point to keep all these different things,all these different impressions,meaningful tied together and emotionally,very powerful.So I,I didn't mean to interrupt,but we've talked in the past about seeing brand through a storytelling lens.What,what's different in that than sort of the traditional way people would look,look at a brand.Well,I think the traditional way people do branding and marketing is to think of it as a story.Um Long before the word brand got thrown about,let's go back thousands of years to the first marketplace and I'm walking in it and I have come upon something I want to buy and we've got to figure out between me,the purchaser and you,the seller,what am I gonna pay for it?And the way you're gonna try to get me to pay what you want is by telling me a story about the thing.It's been a timeless way of selling since the very beginning.You can hear it in modern marketplaces,traditional marketplaces today.And if you take that principle and you say,OK,look why isn't that happening now?Well,it's because the buyer and seller are separated by media,they're separated by time because the marketplace is much bigger,much more complex because we live in,in modern industrial civilization,right?But that principle still holds true.That's our point of view.And a brand is really just that it's a story that's told in a marketplace.So again,we see it as like the old,becoming new.Again.That's interesting.I mean,it's kind of like haggling,social media has become the modern day haggling.Haggling is part of it.You know,there's the haggle phase,but there's also the post sell phase.I remember purchasing or bringing in a leather jacket to uh a leather repair,clothing repair place and I paid the price I was happy to pay for it was kind of expensive.And afterwards,the the guy who specialized in leather was telling me how beautiful it was and how beautiful my jacket was and how it deserved all this care left me feeling really good.We're in post tale now,you know,so there are phases of it and you know,in the direct marketing marketplace too,you sure do.You're making the right decision by spending that money on that leather jacket,right?To get it right?And we're building a relationship,right?Like I'm appreciating it.There's a little element of entertainment and there's an element of respect.He's telling me a story about how much he cares about me and what I brought to him to work on.So,Eric back up a little bit,I mean,it's amazing having you here in studio and just your work.I mean,just that alone of,of what you do and building brands.And I think that's,there's a,I guess what I want to hear a little bit is you brag on yourself a little bit about and it doesn't necessarily mean names as much,which is,boy,this is,this is the credibility you bring to this podcast.where like,where are you coming from?Eric?It's like,I almost feel you came in like all of a sudden we got real serious and sacred.There's like a sacred,the sacred story and we've got a sacred storyteller in here.And um I mean,that's knowing about where he came from or what,what your origin story.Yoda.I look,I,I seriously,I think I was in a series.It's one of those stories of being in the right place at the right time and being lucky enough to recognize it.So,as a kid,I grew up in a household where stories were big.My father was a probation officer and every night at the table,we had these incredible stories of the people in his case load,you know.So oral storytelling was something that I grew up on in a particular way.I also grew up in the border region.So San Diego and Tijuana Sister Cities and my dad,uh who's bilingual would take me down to Tijuana with him and there,we would purchase all kinds of things and some of the touristy things were in marketplaces where you haggled to go back to what Steve was saying as a kid,I got into haggling.I loved it.I thought it was awesome and it made the things that came out of there that I purchased,you know,Guitar Morocco's a chess set,um feel even more special.So there's that right.And then let's zoom ahead a little bit.I'm in Hollywood,if you will.I'm in L A and my office.I'm at this point,I'm kind of a copywriter,kind of a marketing consultant.Haven't really thought about the storytelling thing.I end up working next to a remarkable duo Linda Berman.Jonathan Katz.Linda Berman was a marketer behind Caswell Massey and Jonathan Katz had the biggest,one of the biggest uh um uh like prop houses in town.And they were in the thick of developing this idea of themed retailing and themed retailing involved developing backstories.And these backstories would be given to visual merchandisers,marketers,people making the clothes to help create these themed environments.So,you know,I worked with them on these environments when we figured out that we kind of dug each other guest.The guest stores were one Discovery Flagship Store,Nature Conserve,uh Nature Company had a store,um you know,so themed retailing was another stage,right?And then I kind of thought Well,um ok.Uh if you can do this for retail,can't you make back stories for anything?And there are some other steps along the way,but maybe those are the two key parts of my origin story.And here it was awesome.So here I'm in L A,right?And all the writers and basically that's what I am are drawn into the entertainment industry and there's good money there and a lot of fun and you're part of what L A is.A lot of L A is about and I've got this little place to myself,right.I'm in this big city with a lot of commerce going on,that's not entertainment and some of it's entertainment and there's this need or this recognition that this kind of approach to selling stuff um works.So it was like being this little tiny fish in this big big pond and really I should have been eaten alive,but there were no other fish.So it was a great place to start.I'm,I'm always grateful to L A for being a place that's entrepreneurial and spirit and,and uh where I could figure out some of these ideas and kind of like Hollywood production model you could say applied to um applied to brand thinking right,right place at the right time.I mean,I think Malcolm Gladwell and Out Outliers,right about his talk of people that have had a success because of being at the right place and the right time,the right place and the right time you got me thinking about.So a couple of years ago they did this experiment on ebay and they bought,they went and bought a bunch of the,these little salt and pepper shakers and whatever.Just,just worthless information,just kind of junk.And so,so these guys bought and then they had,um,the,the control was just posting the objects and,and putting them up for auction and then they hired a bunch of writers.It was the same items to write a back story for each item,these salt and pepper shakers and pin wheels and whatever.Um And the result was people were willing to pay more than 10 times more for the same item that had a story versus just the item power,the power,the power of the story.So,Eric,you were able to,through this experience,you were able to sort of codify uh sort of the mechanism for telling a story and you've got this brand wheel.And so,you know,tell us a little bit about that.So what you,you've been able to do is kind of make a business out of brand storytelling.How you know,how,how are you doing that?Well,if you go back to that example,um which is a great example.I love that.I think it's called like the significant objects.Yeah,it's fun to track down.Um you might say,ok,that's great.Um And very talented writers worked on that.How could we,to your point,how could we make a business out of it?How can we replicate that?And if you just start from scratch all the time,you're gonna be,you know,really frustrated and have a hard time making deadlines.So we kind of figured out the story framework that worked generally.Um And it turns out to be a version of the,you know,classic adventure story,but we broke down the different pieces of it.And then we mapped that framework to brand elements,vision,mission positioning,promise,value propositions,things that are commonly used terms and ideas in brand marketing and figured out where they fit into that adventure story framework.So it was your peanut butter,my chocolate um fairly simple.Um And that was it,you know,so that is the brand wheel uh that we use,well,actually the elements of the brand wheel and then you apply them to the story framework.And that's,that's how you kind of build a scalable business,I guess.And the framework,the framework itself,we've talked about this before.There's only so many models out there of that framework to use for the storytelling.Yeah,I mean,there there could be more,I mean,the classic model that you see if you type in brand marketing is this kind of a pyramid and look,I mean,whatever gets you to have a deep relationship and have an emotional connection to the people and the things you're buying.Um,you don't even have to have a story in mind to do it to just,we think it's a great way to go.But that pyramid just didn't,I don't know,it didn't sit right with me.I've seen great work done using that.It's very common but I'm just not a pyramid guy.I'm a circle guy.I really am.You know,I like to see things rippling out and circles concentric circles.I don't know,it just does something for me.So Steve Jobs was all about the story.I mean,he wasn't about,you know,trying to say,hey,we make computers.It was literally,you know,everything that he was doing was literally about,you know,what you can use these computers for the same as Nike.Nike isn't about shoes.They don't market,everyone knows they make shoes,but it's all about that story.How do you simplify that message down because they obviously like just do it as a very,very short phrase.But there's an entire story process built around pretty well.Every ad to these companies.Great question.Yeah.Well,uh from my way of looking at it,just do.It is the title of the story.So you write the story,it's got to have a great title and honestly,Steve,that's how we go about exploring and creating taglines.We save that for last and there's a story and it needs a title and we want it to be catchy.And there's your tagline.Excellent.There's a,there's a scene out there called Less is More,is that you,you apply to that as well.They're in applied storytelling.Less is more you try to narrow it down.Do you?I,I guess help me understand that from your lens.Um Well,simple is really good.Um I don't know stories.I mean,when you're creating a story,some things end up on the editing room floor,so to speak and some things stay in and I guess a great story is one that has focus but has the capacity to become very rich if you wanted to.So within,you know,there are many layers and levels that you can get into the story at the end of the day.Sure,we want to be able to distill it down.Less is more as proof that you can have more.I have a question.So you're doing this commercially.So you're doing this for commercial clients,Eric.And um I'm sure along the way,there have been a few that didn't appreciate uh your sophistication.Uh And I'm so I'm curious because I like a little dirt.Uh Tell me,tell me a story about when uh when you had a big win and everyone got it and then tell me like an epic fail like where it just the what?For whatever reason,it just fell apart,the client didn't get it or whatever.But let's start with uh let's start with the,the good news.Like what,what's a really like strong example where you felt like you got the story,right?It resonated with the client and the audience and then the flip of like what was an epic fail?Well,one of the high points of getting the story right in general is when so remember we're creating the equivalent of treatment,right?The story is what's happening all the time in the world.People are hearing the story,they're sharing it.But the the treatment if you will the back story,one of the high points is when you share that at least that's what should be one of the high points people feel good,they might clap,uh they might cry,they might do something.One of the most satisfying moments was working on the story for Detroit,the tourism and economic economic development story back in 2006,sharing that with a very diverse audience,people,with a lot of different agendas brought together in a room,legislators,news people,community members and sharing that story and having a journalist jump up from her seat and say I'm so excited I can pee oh that was good.That was good.Another great moment in a more practical way was in the sharing of this,you know,of the narrative for uh Pharma Company,Biotech company,um the VP of investor relations got up from the meeting,he got something he needed.He went into a call with the um analyst for their category covering them and was sharing,you know,a new idea about what the company was all about and it worked,you know,and the analysts have been pounding on him for a while.So finding that way to meaning is really important and really satisfying and seeing these anecdotal instances where all of a sudden it's clicking,right?It works.That's,well,they see themselves in,they see themselves in there and that's really goes back to,you know,the opening statement about telling the story is so compelling that people are drawn to it,they see they,they want to engage,they see themselves in it.That's got to feel good.Yeah,it feels fantastic,so fascinated by,by all of this and,you know,we're gonna have Steve,I'm gonna have you jump in because,you know,Eric,all your work with,with brand storytelling.And it's funny because Eric and I met years ago because,you know,the work that I do in education and training and a lot of it ties into internal corporate culture and I've always been about storytelling.So I'm looking inside the organization and using storytelling to get people engaged with the culture.So story or brand and Eric and I have talked about this before,you know,brand internally is culture externally,it's called brand but internally.And so,you know,Eric and I start talking about,well,typically the two don't talk.Um but if you have alignment internal with an organization,like you mentioned,like Nike just do it if you bring that brand internally and make it part of the culture.Now you've got,you know,you've got amplification inward and outward,which is a very,a very powerful thing.Uh Have,have you ever seen where a company uh the employees didn't like the brand that you were creating for them initially?Sure.I mean,there are instances where the employees have,have need to be brought along.Um I mean,that's something that our process now kind of accounts for like they're involved in the process somewhat.So,but there are people,you know,not necessarily a staff at large,but there are people who don't necessarily like the story for a variety of reasons.Usually I'd say it's because they feel that their role or the thing that they're championing isn't represented well enough.Um And we really try to work on that.I mean,you know,we want people when we're in a work session and we're interviewing them to be loud and stand up for their particular agenda so that we can account for it.So yeah,it happens but,but not necessarily that much and sometimes it's just change people,you know,it's a comfort zone that they don't want to leave.Right.And all of a sudden you're changing the story,you're not changing it,but you're enhancing the story and it causes some change.That's true.And that brings me to a kind of a fail.I don't know if it was a total fail.And I,it wasn't fortunately an embarrassing fail.But one of the hardest things to do when you're,one of the hardest storytelling assignments is bringing cultures together to your point,Joseph,and you have people who've grown up together,built a company together,they have a certain way of being right.They have certain shared beliefs and when they're brought into a larger organization that's acquired them,let's say,and things are gonna be different,there can be real resistance.So there have been a number of instances where that's been a real sticking point and in one case,the company that was acquired said,look,we have all the recognition in Europe.This was a global acquisition.Uh We're just not gonna go with that story,we're just not gonna do it.And the client really didn't have the leverage,you know,they wanted that to happen and it probably would have been a good thing.But in this case,so much of the market,so much of the business was owned by this acquisition that they just flat out refused.Yeah.Well,you're hitting on a,a really big point and that's,you know,we usually get pulled in a moment you,you talk about change.I mean,we're,we're change agents when you're a lot of times when you're a storyteller,especially in business you get brought in because the story's changed.There's been a merger acquisition,something's happened.So you're an agent of change.And what happens is Instigator.I think that's what you,that's what you are instigator and it's at those points of change where some people are excited about it.Some people say no,I like it the old way or you know,they don't want the new story.They don't want the new story because they're comfortable with the old one and they'll bring it down.Yeah,quickly.And it's like to cut off your nose to spite your face type thing,you know,and Eric uh what's exciting about your work and,and you and I are partnering up on,on workshops and,and I,I love what I love what Joseph mentioned earlier as well is there's an internal facing story and there's an external facing story and,and we get those together.That's where to me,that's where the real power comes because if you can get those two aligned,that's powerful.Yeah,absolutely.We love working on both sides of the mirror if you will or front of house,back of house,however you break it down.Um There are different needs that the two audiences have.Um But at the end of the day,um your external story,which is really where we focus most is going to be so much more powerful and so much more credible.If the people who are really creating it,to be honest,understand that and feel like they're living it and they're representing it because it's not a one and done either.So,you know,so Eric,your process kind of ends.When you've crafted the story,you've crafted the messaging.Yeah,you,you've,you've created those components and give them back to the organization.And then Steve like your work is when that story's been written,then the challenge with the organization is,well,how are we communicating that out?How are we amplifying?Now?We've got,we finally got our poop in a group and uh we're all agreeing,this is our story.They all look at me poop in a group and,and,and that's not really my work.I don't do that anymore.The poop in a group.You did that.I did.Yeah,but it's not what I do now,but you have an expertise in that.You know,there's a kind of an ongoing discussion in the brand world about,you know,who's,whose story is it,right?And what,what does that mean?Well,yeah,in a sense like,you know,with the rise of social media,there's been a school of people who say,well,the story is only what the um customer thinks it is.If the customer says this is your story then you know,that is your story and we don't come from that school.I mean,ultimately,you want people to take up the story and make it their own and cosplay it.If you will tattoo it on their bodies,whatever design their lives around it.But to me,that's not really honest.I think the honest way to look at this is who has the most skin in the game,the people selling the product,right?They're the ones who are going to put the time and the energy into crafting that story.Yes.Ultimately,if no one hears it or if no one gets it,it's a story poorly told,but it's still your job,it's still your ownership at the end of the day,still your responsibility.And when you think of it like,hey,you know,we're making a brand as opposed to these people making a movie,no one says uh that movie is the,you know,the audience made that movie.Uh No,it doesn't work that way.The audience determines whether it's a good movie or not validates it by supporting it lives it and all that stuff.But at the end of the day,you know,there's a movie studio,there's a writer,there's a director,they're producers.It's interesting you bring that up because uh the last episode,we were talking about publishing,we talked about who owns the copyright these days,right?With A I out there now there's there's some challenges with and even lawsuits right about who owns and in working in branding and what you do with telling the story.How do you secure that,that they remain as the owner of that content of that brand of that story?Well,again,what we're doing,it's probably simple in our world.I mean,the,you know,the treatment,the backstory that we're working to build.Um I,I don't know,I mean,you would copyright it as the,as the company,but it,it's like a movie treatment.It doesn't really have a lot of value until it's activated.So I don't know that people are exactly struggling over that.All,all the other stuff that you know,comes from,it is copyrighted,you know,and the company owns it.I think it's fairly simple.I might not be thinking it through very well,but,but here's a more complex thing.What,what happens,what happens when the brand story goes out but it's misinterpreted by the audience or it's usurped by someone who wasn't the target audience.Well,that happens all the time.And what would be an example of that?Like what would be a like a story that tells that where boy,this is what happened here was the story.Here is the brand,this is how it got usurped,they pronounce that,right?Depends on which part of the world you come from.But we,we,we,we,no,so uh are you asking me or are you asking Eric,Eric?Let's stay on topic,which is surp,surp usa surp.Um,well,you know,I guess this is the,this is where maybe the copyright issue comes in,right?It's not really owned,right.So we have a client right now that it's in a very hot category are very hot paradigm in this category that they,the business that they're in and they're really frustrated.They're a small company,they're just getting started.They come up with cool messages.They come up with a cool story and a bigger company has eyes on them and they suck all that stuff,all those messages,all those great ideas as soon as this little company generates them bang,they're just sucked right up and they're amplified and they're repurposed and the little guys are basically competing against their own story.The father giving them the father,right.Yeah.You know,and so yeah,and they,it does.Exactly.And they come to us and they say,how can we,you know,how can we,how can we goof proof it or,you know,own owner,proof it.And um that's hard to do,you know,I mean,um there are different ways you can,you can try to do it but um purposely give them a misaligned message.What if they were to do that?Like provide some type of misaligned story message and see the big guys grab that then.But you'd be,you'd be suffering from it,you know,early on.So they're not controlling the story.Hm.What do you mean they're not controlling their story digitally.So there's ways to do that.You mentioned that earlier about the authorization is just one small piece.But I mean,if I'm for folk tellers,for example,when I first met Joseph,the whole thing that you have to do with any company is to lock down the brand and you do that by making sure that that name,you can secure it across all the different social channels through the domain name,uh through any form of copy writing,all that thing.And if,if you can't lock all those different names down right now,then select a different name for your company or for your startup because you'll never be able to control the narrative and someone else will always control it to that point.That's the brand.But the Eric's point,you're talking about the story that's associated with that brand,that's what's getting grabbed,so to speak,right?Um It's important to lock down the names and sometimes it's harder for somebody to get a good message without a name attached to it.But yeah,the things we're talking about are a little bit have a little bit less form,right?They're,they're harder to own.Um I mean,broadly,I would agree with Steve that the more you can control it um and stay consistent maybe you can win through consistency.Um finding fresh ways to say things,understanding that you've got fast followers.And so you're gonna continue to be the one who's being followed,right?Because you're gonna come up with fresh ways to say things and you know that at the end of the day,you're trying to differentiate,you're trying to find a positioning that no one else can own a story that no one else can tell as,as well as you can.And you know,you may get swamped,but there's probably a kernel if you stay with it that you can own and no one else can,can quite claim um going back to the client we're working with right now.Um We kind of,you know,so the point of the story is to apply it,right?It's not,we're not just telling the story,we're using it to do things and we pointed out that the positioning that they had would enable them to develop a test,um proof of concept that none of their other competitors could even do.Uh So that's where the story led to an insight about how we could set up a demo if you will.And the very parameters of the demo were such that no one else could even compete.So it was the storytelling,storytelling is doing a lot of things,right?It's differentiating,it's increasing the perceived value which goes back to the significant objects.It's helping people in the,you know,in disruptive categories,a new role of storytelling is accelerating the time to which something becomes meaningful,the time to which I understand it and I can fit it into,you know,this unfamiliar thing into my world.Uh You know,so we're taking it and we're looking at the feedback loop like,OK,how can we use this to develop tools?How can we use this to inform product differentiation and so on?So,in some ways,all these things working together might play a kind of ground game to allow you to win out over that big competitor who's literally eating your words and then spitting them out again.So,Eric,if I were to ask you,I mean,you and you worked with some major brands,you've got great experience and,and your journey's been amazing.What,what advice would you give to somebody listening about branding,about marketing,about storytelling,what,what marketing,101,whatever you wanna call it,what simple advice?One item,two items,what would you give that person?No,thanks,Kurt.Um There's one item and somebody asked me that question and said,I have no budget.I'm just starting,what do I do?And I said,look just be interesting.OK.Um Probably in being interesting,whatever that means to you,um you're gonna arrive at something that's a little distinct,right?Um A voice that's a little distinct,an idea that's a bit fresh so just start with that and the rest will follow.All right.Well,Eric,thank you uh for being here.Uh Joseph.Yeah,it's,it's our first.You are our first in studio guest.So hopefully not the last,right.Eric,don't,don't tell anybody.Oh,excellent.Yeah,thanks for coming.So,Eric,Eric really,you know,his whole focus.Uh It was great to have him in the studio.Um His,his whole focus is on the story,craft side of things.But you know,there's once you have that story,how do you communicate it out and you know,we had touched on this in previous podcasts and this,there's so much noise out there.Um How do you Steve like,you know,this has been your expertise and um you know,you still work in this space.But when we met,you had talked about this concept of a digital footprint and it like,really sparked my,sparked my brain to say,well,digital footprint,what's that?And you had explained to me what you need to do is no one can see you and it doesn't matter how great the thing that you have.If no one sees you,it doesn't matter.So you need to create what you call the digital footprint.And the more you and you have a whole model for this,I want to talk about a little bit,the more you increase your digital presence,the bigger your footprint gets and eventually,if it gets big enough people will begin to see it and then people can't ignore it.Can you talk a little bit about that?Well,in today's world,everything is about search,right?I mean,if you're looking for something,you're going to a field and you're typing in some type of keyword and you're trying to find things or you're following a hashtag or you're doing that type of thing.Wait a minute,those yellow pages that I use anymore.They're not,they don't work.Yeah.II I use them,right?Like you need to be taller.Can you rip those in half?So how about wrestling?But it used to rip those but it's,it's different now because yellow pages were the go to for information for looking up.Absolutely.And you're still in that.It's the same thing really.I mean,you're looking for information,right?And uh and this is really no different.What Eric was talking about for most of the time is all about the,the what I call the C and CF I F IC IC IC F I stands for content frequency and influence.So it's something that we,we found out a while ago if you take the three different attributes of digital marketing,writing great content,sending it out frequently to all different channels and then having it reinforced with people that have,have influence,guess what you get success,you remove any of those and it doesn't work.If you just focus on c it will fail,you just working on sending out uh content at a frequency,but it's not great content is gonna fail if you don't have people of influence that have,you know,a large following or can place it in front of other audiences.Um,for example,if you're selling basketball shoes and,and um,someone take a professional athlete,takes a photo wearing those shoes,guess what?Boom,it goes up.CF I and that's how everyone should look at.If you're marketing in a business,you got to look at those three different things and,and even the biggest companies don't see that you,you had told me uh not to name names,but when you were out in Hollywood,one of the largest entertainment companies didn't have enough content for you to promote,to promote their film.Not even close.That's crazy.They would put out one trailer and they would,you know,on a billboard and you know,they were down to Los Angeles and think that they're done.I'm done marketing and they didn't understand it that no,that's not the way it works.You know,everyone's held to the same,same algorithm.So you better figure out and understand how to use that algorithm so you can move up search and it's not just about search too.It's also about like I shouldn't say that it's still about search,but it's also about ranking.For example,if I'm trying to sell a book or a movie or a podcast and it's on,on Apple.Well,where do I want to rank?You're gonna want to rank number one?Well,how do you rank number one?If I just put the podcast or the video or the,the song out there and there's nothing behind it to be able to push that.How does it move to number one?What makes it go to number one?Yeah.What,what is it?Well,it's something that we figured out called D PF for digital Presence factor.And basically what it is is the size.It's a waiting.So imagine a formula that takes the size of your digital footprint that you have for.Uh we'll use this podcast as an example,the size of the digital footprint of the podcast.Now we're just starting.So we're young.We don't have a,a big digital footprint yet.But as we make more and more episodes and we create more and more web content and more and more social messages and so on and so on,we're building that DPF.So it's not like sending out one tweet and going,hey,you know,we're gonna be successful.That's not gonna work.We're talking about lots of stuff and it can't all be the same.It all has to be different and it all has to be interlocked together.The digital footprint means that they're all tied together.That's,that's fascinating.So it's,uh,so you're talking about,one of the things you're talking about is quantity and the amount that needs to be an ongoing amount.What about the quality of it does quality come into play?Absolutely.Because if you don't,because the,the second thing that,that DPF has to be timed by,for it to be successful,it's times by the number of views or the number of downloads.So say,for example,it's an itunes song,right?It's digital footprint times the number of downloads or views or whatever on that particular piece of media.And then,and what happens if that happens?You uh you get a high rank position.So the more downloads that you get the higher,do you move up the rank,the less downloads you have the lower you are on the rank.So I have a question about that Steve,who,who,who is they,who is it that has this CF I,this DP,you know Eieio,who is doing this,we invented these,these whom,who is the company that I own?So this isn't something that so call Steve.So call Steve for CFI,I wanna get my,I putting it out there for people to use it.I mean,it's,it's something that I used for years,but a reason I'm,I'm going public with it because I don't do it anymore.I don't market movies anymore.I don't do any of that stuff.No,no you should,I got your tagline yankee rank but it can be used for Steve will help you.Yank your rank.OK.We're gonna have to have some editing done.We just went from PG 13 to what ranking or what?Well,they know what we're talking.We're talking about your ranking.Steve will help you.Yank your rank,Steve.I just didn't,I just say I done,Steve will no longer yank your rank.But can you refer them to someone?What are we talking about today?I,oh Yeah,CF I and the other one,DP,DPWDPF is digital presence factor.So no,that's the homework for today.You know,remember DPF and remember CFI,I mean,the reason we made them into acronyms is so we could remember them,you know,because I,I even I forget and I'll,I'll start to do marketing for whatever,like for our own stuff that we do.And it's like,OK,I gotta go back to the basics.I gotta go back to content frequency influence.If I keep doing that,then I,then I remember,remember what to do.So,yeah,so OK,so then let's,we gotta wrap up.But uh the piece of advice for people that want to amplify uh you know,this goes back to,to the story,the storytelling and publishing.Uh how can they amplify their story using digital media?How do they do it?Like?What's,what's the,what's your uh 1 to 3 big piece of,of advice.I mentioned it when,when uh Eric was here,make sure you lock down all the channels first for the name of whatever it is that you're doing,whether it's a book or whether it's a business or whether it's a podcast or a movie or whatever.Grab the,get the common name,make sure that you've got it right across the board.Lock that down first.Once you do,then you have channels.And I remember when I first got into social media marketing,everyone was like,don't call social media channel.Well,that's Boloney.They are channels,they're all channels and you have the more channels you have the larger digital footprint that you have,the larger digital footprint equals success.That's the way it works.Beautiful,great way to end.This was a powerful one,guys.Well,my brain's still hurting.I know I probably will doing Eric's content and,and see what you're writing at the end here.It's very powerful.Thanks for helping us Yank,stop it.All right.Thanks,everyone.Just went down after this close.All right,we'll talk soon.
 

Go Write Me a Book, Kid!

The ins and outs of books, publishing and their impact upon getting your story out there.
We are joined by RJ King – Editor of dBusiness Magazine of Hour Media - Hour Media is the largest publisher of city and regional magazines in the United States — as well as a multimedia production and digital distribution company.
Knowledge is Power, and in the middle ages reserved for the rich and royal – THROUGH BOOKS. Throughout the Middle Ages, books were made by hand. Much of the writing was done by monks working in monasteries. It wasn’t until Johann Gutenberg used the technology of movable type from China and Korea to develop the printing press, allowing common, ordinary people access to knowledge.
Suddenly, knowledge was portable, accessible, and available to the masses. Gutenberg’s printing press revolutionized communication, much like the Internet revolutionized how people communicated in the second half of the 1900s—although at not quite the same lightning speed! Plentiful, affordable books opened the door to a whole new world of learning and ideas.
 
Folktellers Universe
 
#Folktellers
#Storytelling
#Publishing
#Books
#Authors
#HOURmagazineDetroit
#RJKing
#StoriesToBeShared
 
All right,everybody.Welcome to episode five.Go write me a book kid.That's uh my best Frank Sinatra.So this is,this is gonna be all about storytelling through publishing and books and magazines and all these things.But uh let's get our intros out of the way.This is Joseph.I am here with my two cohorts.There's,there's no adjective for me today.Um The or what was it called?Amphibious?What was going down?I was gonna say the no,I won't say it anyhow.Now I'm here,Steve Sadler is here.The stupendous Stephen Sadler and the KK here too.I came back.I,I show up they don't have last names apparently anymore.There,they're so popular now.They're just going by their first names.They are.Oh I thought you were referring that your,that's your new pronoun.Well,how,how many famous people are?They,you,you hear their one word name and you know who they are,right?That's,are we at that point?You guys are so famous?You,you should just go by a simple,that's what I think we're not quite there yet.The,the artist formerly known as the podcast known as Oh my gosh.OK.So,yeah,what a start.So we're already going down the rabbit hole.This is again,I will this up.So we're talking about storytelling in,in books and in publishing.And we actually have uh a guest a little later on.We'll have RJ King who is the editor in chief of the business magazine of our media.And I will tell you from my notes,our media is the largest publisher of city and regional magazines in the United States as well as a multimedia production and digital distribution company.So this is big time.Yeah.Yeah,he's,yeah,he's a heavy hitter.He's a heavy hitter.So uh we're all authors.We're all been uh we've been self published,we've been with,with uh major publishers,independent publishers.So it'll be interesting uh because we've all had different experiences there.But I I open with this for your consideration.So how long have books been around?I mean,originally books starting in the middle ages were handwritten by monks.And uh it wasn't until Gutenberg,I think it was like 15,17 adapted movable type from the Chinese and the Koreans.And you could actually mass produce books.And the significance of that is that regular people now were given portable knowledge.Think about that,think about that access,access to knowledge.So it wasn't just for the elite anymore.And now regular people could have access to that knowledge and it was portable,you could take that you could take that with you.So,you know,knowledge is power if you knew how to read,if you knew how to read,right?So all of a sudden now you've got this acceleration in learning and reading because it was access to knowledge,what's going,what's going through my mind is,you know,before it was all handwritten,everything had to be handwritten as far as a book or content you mentioned about the Gutenberg Press and it became mass production at that time.What was that like?Versus one copy per,per book.There is now 10 that the good word press or five,whatever that number.But,but either way it was a bigger number,right?And I don't know what that volume is.But um it,it allowed people access and I think that's the biggest thing is access to information,access to information.And now all of a sudden there are authors,you know,you know,the first,the,the biggest translated work was the Bible.That's what the monks were.I was working on and they were working on,you know,religious text and,and manuscript.But now,you know,now you've got movable type and it's a,it's a business because before uh they were doing that for the kings and queens and the elite,we have,you know,having these books hand done and then passed on from generation to generation.Now you had uh you had books that were accessible to the general public,they were cheaper.And now there's a whole,I wonder which King went to Gutenberg first and said,hey,let's do a publishing deal,right?Publish,publish my biography.Will you do that for me or follow the money?I mean,really,I bet if you,if you followed all the traditional presses and,and publishers and you followed it all the way back,it would be,you know,whoever bankrolled that because I'm sure it wasn't cheap to,to,to,to build the press and,and to do that and,you know,it probably was in all the major cities started the major cities and then smaller presses moving out and that wasn't just books.I mean,so once they did that,that now you had,you know,newspapers,now you had,you know,magazines,you had,you know,all those things you gotta remember,like,um,the printing presses.What were they originally created for anyways?And it wasn't just books.It was for money.Mm.Yeah.Oh,they were printing money?Of course.I mean,you don't,that's probably the biggest thing.I mean,without the money you're not gonna be able to buy the books.So,I don't.So,the chicken and the egg thing,right.Which one came first?The money or the books?Well,we're gonna get RJ on the phone and,uh,we'd love to hear his perspective because he's a guy that's in the industry,he's been in the industry for decades.So he's been in it when things were hot in print,you still had newspapers.It wasn't,everything wasn't digital.I mean,RJ started,you know,he's of our era.So when he started,you know,uh,print in magazines and newspapers and books was still a thing and then you've,you know,you've heard of the slow death.So I'd be interested to hear what he has to say about,you know,what it was like,you know,in the eighties and beyond.And then what is it now?I mean,are people even reading anymore?He's also an amazing author.Yeah.And there,yeah,there you go.Hey RJ,it's Joseph.We were Steve and Kurt.Uh great to have you on.We gave you a lovely intro already.You've been,your ears are probably burning.Uh We're talking about your role as editor in chief of the business magazine as a part of our media.And you're,have you on because you are an author,you are an editor,you are a chief bottle washer and cap caper in the publishing industry.So,what we were talking about and we'd like to get your perspective on is we were talking about,you know,the history of,of print and publishing and it was all,you know,it was all ink and paper and now we've moved from ink and paper into digital and,uh,and what does that look like?Are people reading less or are they reading differently?And,uh,you know,what,what's your take on that?What's your take on sort of your history?You know,it'd be good to get a little bit about when you started in the industry and what it was like,uh,transitioning to where you are today.I mean,what,what have you seen in the industry over the past decades?What I started in journalism,I was a business writer for the Detroit News and we had a huge,uh,business staff,uh,probably 16 people,including editors,uh,and slowly over time that,uh,just got,uh widowed down and there's probably maybe seven or eight of the Detroit news these days,I'm just guessing.Uh,but with computers to becoming much more prominent and access to information much,uh,more quickly when the information age,uh,people are looking to get their content,uh,much quicker and faster and,and online.So the good news is,there's still plenty of journalists around,um,whether they're working full time or,uh,many of them are retired and working part time.So there's a lot of tribal knowledge and,uh,those folks,um,pretty much like to stay active,uh,writing in a feature once or twice a month.Um,what it's for the business or our Detroit or,you know,any,uh,newspaper magazine or online publication and as well,you have,you know,a lot more smaller stories that tell people very quickly what's going on and those are great for your smartphones.But if you're looking for a deep dive,uh say a feature story on General Motors,very hard to read that on the phone.Uh especially if there's charts and graphs that go with it.So,Prince is a great,still a great medium for that.And uh Prince is uh it's very mobile uh as well.So it's great for airplanes,driving in cars and uh waiting in doctors lounges and those types of things.But I think overall the news is coming in quicker and faster and there's smaller bites of it.Uh but there's also the in depth pieces uh in depth features out there that uh that are still enjoyed in print.Yeah.So,so it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is though the format has changed.So uh people want their news or,or facts quickly,they want it quickly and that,that seems to be they're accessing in,in digital formats on their,on their phones or ipads or whatever.Um but when they want to do a deeper dive and then when they really want more of a,an in depth story that that books and print are still uh are still a valid mechanism and they're getting it in many other different places as well.What do you,what do you mean?Well,I mean,the content can be found in search,it can be on RSS feeds,which we can talk about later.But I mean,it's,there's ways of being able to,for people to be able to subscribe to certain things right now digitally.And so you get notified on whatever device you're using,whether it's a phone or whether it's a browser or whatever,it's like,hey,here's a new article from,you know,our magazine or the business.So now,now,now content and information is being pushed based upon your customized interests.Well,I think,and,and this is Curt RJ,it's so great having you on.I can tell you that.I think it's more from the digital side.I think it's headlines.I really think that's what's being marketed and pushed is headlines and then it might go a little bit deeper,right on the digital side.People are reading headlines first and then deciding if they want to read any content that's in there.But RJ,I guess one of the questions I have is,is I think there's,you know,because I still like paper,I still like having like a magazine or something like a,a great magazine like B Business or,or like our Detroit,our magazine where I can still pick it up.There's images,there's graphs,there's different things in there that is hard to digest and it's hard to,I guess,fully enjoy on a digital side.So there,there's still a need for that is what you're finding.Correct.Oh,yeah,I mean,the uh descriptions we have are,are still very strong and we have great distribution for the doctor's offices or the Skyline clubs.Um,high traffic lobbies,country clubs anywhere where people are,uh have time on their hands,looking to relax and,and books,uh you know,physical books are still dominating over uh what you would call E readers.So,uh there are e readers out there and,you know,Kindle and those types of formats.Uh but people uh still predominantly prefer a physical book as well.I think that uh partly that uh you know,they just want some downtime and uh you know,if you stay on the computer or on your phone for too long,you can just drive yourself right.And,and that to your point too,I,I pulled some sta statistics uh down this line.These are publishing net revenues and other,these are from the publishers themselves for books,the net revenue.If you look at the last 10 years,it,it's,it's not changed drastically.Like in 2013,it was approximately 27 billion in 2022 is 28 billion.And then there's a little dip in between there,but it's really kind of remained consistent.And that was surprising to me because I thought it'd be a more of a major drop in the publishing world to understand that.But it sounds like there's still,like you said,there's people want physical books,they want physical publishing according to the net revenue.My side table seems to tell me that I like books.Most of them are from Joseph though.But uh and I have,I have a bunch of RJ S there as well,which I've read eight track being one of them,which is a great book.But um and you got another one coming out,right RJ.You got something else coming out here soon.I was uh yeah,just after Labor Day,a book called Taboo which tells the story of it's the life story of Nino re uh and focusing in on uh one of his clubs and restaurants that he owns called Club Taboo,which was,and the East River Front of Detroit from 1985 to 1995.And it was kind of like the studio 54 of Detroit.And you had such things as Cinemax doing a tape show called James Brown and Friends,which included AAA one hour show with James Brown and Aretha Franklin,Robert Palmer,Joe Cocker Wilson Pickett and um a few other stars.And uh you know,Prince Madonna,uh you know,Sheila,he,they all came through that club because uh after their shows,they were looking for something to do and invariably people wound up there.So it was a,a huge hit in quite a dynamic time in Detroit.A few stories I would imagine that came along with that.I have,I have a few stories we heard about those.I wonder if in the book.No,no.So,so I think this is,this is a good segue to RJ.I mean,you,you are an author,you are a writer and I,you know,I'm very interested in talking to you about what the impact of traditional publishing to,you know,the digit digitization of media.Say that three times fast,easy for you to say uh it was not,I can take a deep breath after that.Um But I really,really interested in getting your perspective as an author,uh what your experience is and,and a publisher as well.So,you know,you've published in many different formats.Um where,where are your challenges?Because this is funny,the terminology has changed.So you hear,still hear the word author,but there's also the word content creator because now the the things that we write is are now called content because it,it's our written word is not just being used in print,it's being used in many different spaces,it's being used digitally and,and other areas.So now like,not only are you if you're an author,you're a content creator,intellectual property as well.So,so a you know,what's your take on that as a,as a writer and as an author and now as a content creator,um you know,does that open up more opportunities.Does it present more challenges?You know,what have you seen?Well,I think it does open up more opportunities.Um,so more things you can come out with,it's just like anything is if you stay busy,uh you're going to be busy because people will gravitate to your work.Um,and you know,a thing that's,uh,is emerging now is um these sort of online,um,digital services,but I'm referring specifically to something like chat GCP uh where they are just uh combing the internet for uh information based on a query from uh uh a user.Unfortunately,the uh service does not distinguish between uh copyrights and un copyrighted material.And now you're starting to see lawsuits pop up because,um,the service is pulling from copyrighted material and uh the authors or content uh uh owners if you will,aren't getting any revenue derived from that.Um And it is a violation of copyright laws.So that's an interesting thing to follow.I think,uh for your listeners,um,you know,I think services like are,are good for internal things that are public facing.But uh if you're trying to,um use that to,to write a white paper or publish a brochure uh or,you know,get literature out uh and hand it out during conferences and things like that,that could definitely come back to bite you if you're not careful in terms of uh how the information is being sourced and uh you could open yourself up to um to copyright matters.The other thing that books provide um is content for,for movies and uh TV series and,and all those types of things that um you know,because Hollywood in general is uh always looking for good content.So uh writing your next book and getting it um published and uh it's very easy now these days to,to get your book uploaded on uh Amazon and,and get your sales going.And uh the other great thing is you don't have with Amazon and other services like that.You don't have um books sitting in a warehouse.It's all on books on demand and as well for the authors,they provide a steep discount or a wholesale price if you will and uh they'll ship them um all over the United States.So if you're in Detroit and speaking at a conference in Denver,uh you could have the books arrive uh shipped to Denver,you know,and each um you know,let's say you're speaking to 250 people,they each have a copy of your book right there.You don't have to log in on the airplane and log in from the hotel and all that good stuff be shipped right to the Convention Center.And um so there's all different ways that you can um maximize on demand uh uh book publishing uh to your advantages.And up there,which uh you know,wasn't available really because I'm not gonna take 250 books in my carry on bag.I know that Delta will kill you.They'll kill my personal item that would be heavy.So RJ,I,I have another,I have a,I have another question for you along those lines.Um So,I mean,you are uh a leader in the publishing industry.Where do you think the industry is going and will it survive in its current form?Well,I think it's moving uh a little bit more,you know,very tiny bit each day to digital.Uh but people are living longer and uh you know,we're um our media LLC we're in 12 different states and Florida is the best state.Uh It does get a little older.Um a lot of retirees and people that have,uh you know,sort of made it with time on their hands.So not only magazines,but the books are a very uh excellent state for that market.And I think eventually you'll see people develop um Polygraphs so that,uh you know,you could check things on a wall,say,for instance,uh a,a recipe that you might be working on,uh that uh literally will float above your kitchen stove and oven.Um or,you know,if you're outside trying to learn how to uh hit a ball off a tea uh for T ball uh baseball,uh if you could have the instructions right there in front of you.Um,and I would foresee that there would be some sort of a tie in with your phone,um,or,or an ancillary device and,uh,it would speak to you and,uh,with a camera,it,it could even track how you're doing in terms of swinging the bat.Uh,it could be golf.It,it could be horseback riding,it could be so many different things.So,uh those things haven't,have not been invented yet.Um But certainly everybody recalls seeing,uh from the first Star Wars movie when Princess Leia popped up as a holograph part of R two D two.Uh So I think that's the future.Uh,you know,in the beginning you'll be able to send messages like that and then in time it'll be more of a back and forth conversation with,uh,you know,say a resident expert and,and say gardening or something like that.Yeah.Well,that's,I mean,that's fascinating.So if you pull that thread all the way through,because I'm always thinking like,ok,we're,we're all authors and writers and this goes back to that,the,the term content creator because someone's still gonna have to create those stories or create those instructions or whatever.So,you know,maybe that's the,like what you're saying,that's really the future of,you know,how,how do journalists and,and writers and authors stay in business they stay in business by uh creating content and,and creating the stories regardless of what the new medium is,maybe the future of reading is going to change.What do you mean?Maybe instead of reading left to right or right to left,depending upon whether you're here in China or whatever.Maybe that goes away.Have you ever seen those little widgets that says,yeah,you want to read,you know,like 1000 words a minute and it pops up one word at a time and it puts them in front of your eyes and all of a sudden you're reading at that speed.Have you seen those little widgets had a speed reading class?So I took it.But this is beyond that.This is literally,it introduces,introduces to you one word at a time and your brain has the capabilities of being able to read at extremely high rate.And the reason we can is because it's the mechanical process of moving our eyes across the page.And because my dyslexia is,was actually caused because of my eyes because what would happen is my eyes were misaligned and they would actually,you know,blend together words.So it wasn't really kind of dyslexia.It's the mechanical process of how I was reading.Well,imagine if in the future that changes.So it's the new Evelyn Wood Speed reading course,but someone's got to write that no one knows who that is.RJ.RJ we,we really appreciate your time today and uh just so sort of enclosing uh what's the best advice you could give to a budding writer or journalist or someone who wants to get into the publishing industry.Well,number one,I would uh jump on Amazon and um their book publishing division uh KDP.And uh you know,there's nice instructional videos there that teach you uh exactly how to um you load a book up on to Amazon.So at least you have that background uh in terms of writing a book,uh I found the best way is to first come up with the chapters.Uh you know,you wanna write about the history of,say the Eiffel Tower.So you,you know,you go back in France and,and talk about what happened to lead to the construction of the Eiffel Tower and then how it was built and then uh disassembled and then shipped across,you know,so you can sort of see the chapters one by one sort of flow into and once you have your chapters that really gives you a great organizational uh template for writing your book,you know.So one day,OK,I'm gonna work on chapter eight and hey,I just had a good idea on chapter two.I'll jump to that and pretty soon it all comes together.It's a very good organizational um practice to uh come up with the chapters first and then get to know designers,um you can just Google images and uh for particular things that you're looking for and,and also spend time in bookstores to look at um book covers to see what's uh what's working and what's not working.You really wanna draw the reader in.Um instead of having a kind of a cover,you really,really want something to draw people in.Um and don't be afraid to change things.Um You could have a different cover this year and next year you could have a,a different cover for your book.Uh You could have it come out in different colors,uh All different types of things to,to drive sales additions for pink for uh Breast Awareness Month in October.Uh you know,all those different types of things that,you know,something orange for Halloween,whatever it might be.Um And then really look at your properties is um really not just a book but potentially a movie or a TV series or a podcast series.Uh Just always thinking,you know,how you can maximize uh the content you're creating by introducing it through all different mediums.Awesome.I think he's saying trans media,Joseph.Yes,I think he is.Well,sage advice as always RJ,we appreciate your time today and your energy and your smarts and thanks for uh for being on the folk tellers.OK.Well,thank you so much guys.I really appreciate it.We'll talk to you soon.Thank you take care.Thank you.All right,bye bye.Well,that,that was fascinating.I'm glad we had RJ on um a wealth of knowledge.So he's,he's got me thinking now of as writers,as authors and publishers of books in this modern age.How are we getting our stories out there?How are you pulling people in?I mean,I think it's such a challenge because what I didn't get to ask RJ was,I really do think people are reading differently.I don't think people are reading less.I think they're reading differently.And for,like,for me,like I read,if I'm reading a digital on a screen or on a,on an ipad or on my phone,I'm usually reading for knowledge and information.I'm,I'm gathering information books.I'm a book person.I love books.I love going to bookstores.I love spending time in there.If you guys,have you guys ever been down to John King?Books?Down down in the city.So John,I think it's the second largest used bookstore in the United States.It's an old glove factory.It's five floors of pure literary joy.If you love books is to get down there.I actually did,um,it was on the sale table.It was just the bargain bin.Yeah,it was the bargain bin.I,I was,yeah,there was,there was 10 of them.Yeah.My,my book,they just,they just give them away.Like tell them what,what's the average,oh,yeah,the,yeah,the average lifetime book sales for an author.And this is like,whether you're self published or whatever,it's 10 books.I wouldn't think that.And that's only if you have,have a,a friendly family and relatives,you have enough people to buy that.Or is that that's bought,that's,that's bought,which goes back,I brought up one of the stats with RJ about the publishing that sales,right?Annual Nets,I was surprised that it was basically,it,it didn't change drastically throughout the years.However,the unit sales retail,which are the numbers of books sold to retail dropped a little bit like 325,000 annually to 2 25.Um But why,why is that?Yeah,that's the,the,the,you know,so people are still reading books but not a subs.I mean,I guess one of my questions is how are publishers still making net profits that are remaining consistent?So,yeah,this is like,this is what I want to kind of dig into because there's still a lot of publishing.But the face of publishing has changed.There's so much more noise out there because the great thing is you can self publish,but it's a double edged sword because now anyone can write a book.It used to be like there was a certain amount of whatever your subject matter was.There's a certain amount of curation and validation of your content and being able to string words together.That's what traditional publishers did.And they found,they found authors and writers that were good at their craft and that were,were telling stories and that would be interesting to the public.Right.It had to be sellable too.But wasn't,they wouldn't take it.Right.So,now you've got like,anyone,anyone can write a book and actually,if you do it on Amazon it's free.If you,I don't agree with that,you don't agree with what that,that anyone can write a book.It,it's because it's extremely difficult,the whole entire process.I mean,even if you're just using Amazon alone,that doesn't mean that all of that other things are being done for.You.See,see,well,there are many men then because I,I still,I still say I know you just,you're just,someone hit him,hit him.If I,if I come here from hockey,I'm calm.Ok.I don't get to play hockey.This is,this is hockey,at least a quarter of wood or something.No,no,let's talk about,let's talk about this.So I think anyone can,can write a book,get a book published.That doesn't mean it's good and that doesn't mean anyone's gonna know about it.That's what you're,that's what you're hitting on.Even the technical ability to be able to do it.I mean,I'm a,I,but you you just said,pay someone to do it.That's not you doing it.I'm talking about self publish.You do everything all the way to eight.I was saying,well,I think what I'm hearing,that's what self publish means self.If it,if I'm paying someone else to do it,it ain't self.But there's a whole industry on self publishing support that you can pay people to do the bits and pieces.But don't you think that's kind of fighting girls?Go in the other room,please.Uh We're fighting over books here.Stop it.It's not a bad thing to fight over,I guess.Go ahead.So,what I'm hearing though is Joseph to your point.Anybody has the capability of authoring a book,all the tools and everything,right?That's what you're saying,Steve,what you're saying is,well,not everybody can write a book and I,and I agree with both of you,right?Not everybody can write a book,but everybody has the capability with what's available these days to write a book.Am I correct in saying that for both of you?But let's use one thing,just one thing like the copy writing process.Yes.Ok.That alone is a very complicated thing to do.Yeah,I can pay a lawyer to do it,but I paid a lawyer.Well,then you're not self,you had the publisher do it.That's what I'm saying.I mean,to,to be able to be in a completely independent and do it all yourself.The steps to the,to the process of publishing a book are many.And I know I've been through it several times and,uh,but here's,it's difficult.I mean,it,it,it can be,here's,here's my mantra though,Steve.I,if I can write a book and it becomes a regional best seller in its category,anybody can write a book in my opinion.right?It takes one thing,it takes an idea,it takes an idea that you have to have now.Is it work?Yeah,it's a lot of work.It's a lot of struggle.It's a lot of challenge.It's a lot of,you know,soul searching about.Well,how do I,what,what wordsmith do I do here and how do I change this?But I think if I can write a book and it does,OK,and it turns into a TV show and all this other fun stuff,anybody can in my opinion.So what you're what you're saying and I agree with you,this is,this goes back to the storytelling.So everyone does a story to tell.But if you've never,if you want to tell that story through publishing,through a book,you may not understand the medium,how,how to get,how to get that out there.I think your point and that's Steve's point.We all agree with each other.Could write a book if you understood every single part of the process.I didn't have to,I didn't have to.But that's different.You,you said anyone can write a book.Well,anyone can't get a publisher.You had connections because who you are and you were able to get a publisher.Anyone can't just go out and say I'm gonna self today,I'm gonna be a self published author.They're not gonna know the process.And I,yeah,there's a lot of self help stuff out there to be able to help them do that.But the bar is still extremely high.So to say anyone can do it,I don't agree.Anyone can't,not without help.They need lots of help to be able to do it.So even if you self publish or you have a publisher,the work is pretty well,this significant amount of work that I'm not talking about writing the book.Anyone can write a book,whether you do it yourself or whether you have a publisher or you,you have someone,you pay someone to do some support activity for you.You get that book published.Let's so that's done now how there's so much noise out there?How do you get the word out?And this is,I think this is a constant struggle.I mean,the New York best time seller list is rigged.So and Steve,you could share that,but there's a,it is a formula and so is the ranking algorithm on I won't say,well,I won't say it on Amazon.They all are,they can be gained.I mean,a lot of people have gained the system and,and got to be a best seller by doing what they made their book a penny.And so they sold a ton of books for a penny and that's what drove them up the ranks and then they change the rate later on and,and,and services that will do that.Absolutely.Absolutely.But in other countries,we don't do that.So we set that aside,set that aside on the side table.And if you're just someone that's not gonna try to game the system or,or rig the system,how do you get the word out?And I go back to the way people are consuming stories and consuming information.It's kind of like you,you almost have to spoon feed them something that's like,hey,that's cool.What's that?And then that allows them to go deeper and deeper.But,but how do you,how do you do that?I mean,is there,is there a formula for that or is it sort of catches catch?Can it's extremely difficult to market one book?Because if you give,you know,if you share out that information or share out the story,then it's like a one and done and then everyone has your story anyway.Um,like what you're doing makes way more sense because you have many,many,many stories to follow the first one.So it's all about constant content generation.That's what is will be successful.It's not about just,hey,I'm gonna make one book today and it's gonna be um you know,New York Times best seller.I'm gonna make millions of dollars.That is not how it works.So don't,don't give away the secret sauce because you're gonna give that away in the next.Well,we're gonna talk about digital marketing,we talk about which is obviously,but I think to me the book,the book is always a platform for something bigger,right?If I'm just writing a book to sell a book,there has to be something bigger than that,whether it be speaking,whether it be a TV show,whether it be a movie.So you talk about your personal experience with that because you've like,what do you,you've got a book coming out?Well,you can plug your book.Well,I,I have had,this is my third one now.And so my first book from Glory days is with interviews with former professional athletes.I interviewed athletes for this book.The book did pretty good turned into a TV show.We've done four in four seasons of interviews,50 TV,interviews with these athletes.And so the book turned into something bigger.I speak on the topics that we talk about.Now from that book.In other words,the transitions of athletes,the transitions of uh businesses and companies.So that book is morphed into so much more,which is my point that a book needs to be a platform for something bigger.It's also turned into two more books titled The Change where I,you know,talk about Leading Change and,and um how to,how to change.And so um the idea of,to me is boy,if I wanna use this book as a platform to speak,then I wanna make sure that I'm doing whatever I need to do to get it out there,whether it be a trans media approach,right?In other words,it's not just a book,I'm marketing,I wanna market some video,I wanna market some uh you know,other content about that book or about me or about the company in order to do so.But it,to me,anybody writing a book,it has to start with this book needs to be something,a platform for something bigger,correct.And it,and it obviously it depends on what kind of book it is.I mean,if it's a self help book or that type of thing versus a novel,you know,those are two different things.I mean,you're gonna speak around your books and that uh but when you're dealing with novels,what do people want,they want more stories,they want to be like,why is Netflix popular because of series?So book series TV,series,that's what's important.You gotta,you gotta keep the if you're a great author,keep the content coming.I took,uh Joseph to Los Angeles once and they said,you know,you need to stop writing and,and I on the plane back seriously and on the plane back,I looked at him,I said I was crying to them.I was crying.I was sad.I was like a kicked puppy.Like it's ok.I can't get back.They're like you have enough content.I said,no,you never have enough content.Well,I just can't get past.You said you took him once.Is that,is there a lot?OK.All right.I just want to clarify that.But,but yeah,so the content.So there's two different angles like you talked about Steve,there's one of if I'm a novel or I'm creating a novel type story,pushing more and more content building,that story is important if in my case,it's nonfiction.Um having a bigger platform for that nonfiction.Yeah.And this,this bleeds into and we've talked about this on multiple occasions.So we're talking today,we're talking about publishing.So this bleeds into that whole trans media.Like looking at it goes back to the story,Kurt,you said it,it's like you have to have a platform where you're in and in this case,you can replace platform with story,like you have to start with a compelling story.Uh And we were talking about if you,if you're gonna make it in a book or whatever.But if you think of,if you have a compelling story,you need to tell that story across media.So,and that's sort of that trans media approach.And even if you're talking about publishing,you may say,ok,I'm going to publish a book,but you got to pull that thread all the way through because then it's like,OK,you have this physical book now.But what are you gonna do with it?How are you,how are people going to the story?What is the story?What,what,why you wrote it?What it's for?I mean,what's the story behind that part of it,in your opinion?Well,I mean,and this is when how Steve and I connected was,you know,I had basically built out this storytelling universe,this concept of the folk tellers universe and people traveling in time and space to tell others the stories they need to hear,to fulfill their destinies and a,a in a series of children's books.But it was like,OK,how am I?I was a book writer,author.That's all I knew,you know,that was the medium that I was working in.But I knew like just doing a book series wasn't gonna cut it and Steve saw it and was like,no,this is like,you kind of need to look at this.Yeah,we were,and you know,we were talking about,it's like,ok,how do you,when you change the medium,you change the experience?So it goes back to the story,how are people interacting with the story?And my biggest concern was um what I can control is the book series because that's what I know.But I need to bring in other experts that understand other media and could,could amplify and to tell this same story in a different way in a different medium.And we all interact through different types of publishing,whether it's being published as music,whether it's being published art or you know,literary works.It's all being,it's all,it's how,how,how people are connecting,how they're bringing all of these pieces together.And those all sit on top of what Kurt just said the platform,right?So if we can say anything today,you know,if someone's out there and they,they've got all of these stories in their mind,they should really step back,get a white piece of paper,put it on the,yeah,I'm not saying computer same paper,lay it out onto the kitchen table and say,how am I going to design my universe?How am I going to design my platform?And I think most people don't,don't do that.Don't,don't start there.Here's my mantra with that.We have more information available than ever before in history,right.Ever.If I can't find something in 30 seconds,something's wrong,right?But yet we have less thinking and it takes thinking to do that what you just described,Steve.And so,you know,whether it be the Gutenberg Press to where we are today,right?The publishing that started with the Gutenberg Press that we talked about at the beginning.R J's content to where we are today.How do we wrap this up?Yeah.Yeah.So the,I think the,the question for if I was listening to this,I'd be like,where do I start?Like you touched on a little bit?But OK,so all this,there's all this noise and all this going on in trans media and multimedia and content creation and blah,blah,blah.If I have a story,where do I start to capture and communicate this story?I think it depends on where they,who the audience is,right?Because to me that depends on which form I use.Like for a book.I know I have a certain audience,somebody wants to read a book,whether it be online,whether it be uh physical,whether it be audio,if I have a TV show based on those stories that's a different,could be the same demographic,but it's a different way of digesting.I think you've talked about that the way you digest the content.Um I think that's an important question to answer early on of who,who is my audience,why is this important and what is the best um medium to use for this,I think that's a good point.So I'll push back and say,I,I would say as a creator,it starts from within.So how as a creator are you best as an artist?Really think of yourself as,how are you best hardwired to communicate that?For me,it was writing books.Um For me it's TV,for you,it's TV.For me,what about you,Steve?I mean,like,where's your starting point when you're trying to,trying to put stuff together to,to tell a story?If you were to,to look at pieces of paper that sit on my desk,I doodle like if I'm on a zoom call,I'm sitting there drawing little pictures,you know,I'm a left handed engineer.What can I say?Um But I love to draw little pictures.It get,it makes,it brings ideas out with me.So then what I'll do is actually go back and look at my notes,my notes don't look like regular people's notes,they doodles and pictures and all kinds all over the place.And then I,I look at,I go OK.Yeah,this is what I want to do.And so even if I'm building technology or just inventing things or whatever,it's all done the same way,it's all done through doodling.So what you're hitting on and I think we can all agree to this at some point.If you're gonna tell a story and you want to publish in whatever format you have to crystallize it down to its simplest form,at least in your own head.Like,so for me,you know,this whole storytelling universe that I built.I crystallized it down into people say,well,what's this about?What's this whole huge thing about?I'm like,it's a boy,a book in a shadow,meaning what?It's a story about a boy,a book in a shadow.That's the whole thing.Yeah.It's,it's like what Disney,like they said,it all began with a little mouse.You know,you like,that's what,and,and it,it's way harder to do that than,than you would think.But at some point you have to do that.So,um anyway,that's all we've got today.Uh any closing thoughts and words on storytelling and publishing and,and the madness,the rabbit hole that we've gone down.Yeah.For me,it,it's back to what you two were having dialogue.I don't want to call it argument.It probably was,but I didn't see any.Oh,let him go.That's the Monty Python.Because Joseph to your point,the,the anybody is capable of writing a book these days with what's available out there for,for people to write and a publishing.It could be music too.Right.There's avenues out there to Steve to your point that it,it,it might be any,anybody is capable of,of um having information or have an opportunity to write a book but not everybody is capable of.It is,I guess I want to frame that.Yeah,I mean,anyone has the capabilities to be able to write a story but publishing it because of the,the complicated process that you have to go through,you either have to get external help or you have to figure it out yourself.It's one way or another and it's not easy.It doesn't matter whether you're self publishing or whether you're gonna have someone else publish it,it's hard and,um,it's hard for a reason.I mean,because it's hard work and anything that's hard work,you know,is worth doing great point.So that's a great,that's a great way to end.It's not easy,but it's worth doing.So we highly recommend if you have a story to tell,just get started.I would tell it.Thanks everyone.We'll see you soon.

Myth You So Much

Take an epic journey with Kurt, Steve, and Josef as they delve into the world of myth and legend, discovering the mythologies that encompass our daily lives, while asking the big question - Do we really need them anymore?
Folktellers Universe
 
#Storytelling
#Stories
#MythVsLegend
#Myth
#Legend
#StoriesToBeShared
#FolkTellers
 
Welcome to the FolkTellers stories to be shared podcast.My name is Joseph Bastian.I'm here with Kurt David and Mali Lewis.Oh,no,Stephen Sadler,Stephen Sadler.Uh This episode is Myth.You so much where we're gonna talk about mythology in storytelling and how it uh impacts modern storytelling.So,um,I'm,I'd like to begin with a book called Once and Future Myth.It's a,a passage from there.It's a book by Phil Cos.It was written.It's probably a decade old time.I,I'll give you a quote.But,um,this was a book that I,uh,Steve.I know he has because I sent it to him and I know he hasn't read it.Yeah,you just said you had a stack of books for me that you,that you haven't read.So I never said I hadn't read them.I said I have a stack of books from you.That's what I said.You did not know this title and I therefore assume that you do not.So anyway,but that's,that's neither here nor there yet.So I want to begin with a passage from this book,which book,the one that he sent you the one you didn't read once and future myths by Phil Cousin.The quote goes,the old storytellers knew that every life is mythic and that each of our myths are sacred secret stories.And it is the outpouring of a deep longing for meaning which by some still unknown form of alchemy confers the purpose of our lives to those who go beyond appearances and seek the truth of their lives.Everything is a symbol,everything,a story,everything mythic and the discovery of these things back to the beginning is a coming home for all of us.This is the deep urge to seek out the living meaning of myth.Oh my God,my brain hurts.I got to check out for 15 minutes.If I knew it was this good,I would have read that book.I'm sorry,Joseph.Well,your loss.Commissioner Sadler.So,so what does that mean define that for us?Uh Simple.Yeah.So for,for Kurt and other and other athletes,former other former athletes with bad knees?Let's talk about you had asked as we were when we were prepping.Uh what's the difference between myth and legend?That's the question.What is that?Because this is,this is a,this is a good team.Uh So myth,if you,if you look up the definition,it's stories that aren't necessarily based in fact and they're usually stories about how things came to be.So if you think of the creation myth or how the uh I remember like when I was a kid now I'm like to total nerd out on you.Um I had a,a wood yard kipling book that was my favorite.It's called Just so stories and it was how the elephant got his trunk and um how the crocodile got his tears.And so it was uh stories of how things came to be and they're usually things in myth are things that are not fact.Fact,Odyssey would have been an example of a mythic.Uh Yes.Yeah.Like,you know,people always think of Greek mythology.And so how the,how the sun was formed or how the oceans came to be that,that's myth.So legend is,legends are built over time and they're based on some sort of real,a real person or real place or fact.So it's,you could actually,and they're usually tied to some part of history.So like Stephen Sadler,there's a legend.Yeah,there is a legendary component to him.It's in his own mind,but it is legendary.You're OK.You haven't read the book yet.Did I give you my card?All right.So the t-shirt,I,I'll give you an example of a legend.OK.So ba you know,based in fact,based in,in uh some space and time,so I wore this t-shirt,I showed you guys.So it's,it's this flag.OK.This is this is a non visual podcast.I'm gonna explain it.So it,it's got a flag on it and the flag has three colors.It's got red and white and black.And along the side it says sea land.And I asked these guys for sea land like like sea world,but sea land.And so I,I asked these guys,I said,hey,have you ever heard of Sea Land?That the Principality of Sealand?I thought Steve might know being from England,but he,he didn't know.But so Sealand started uh as a pirate radio station back in the sixties.So uh in World War two,the,the British built these defense forts offshore of,of England.So seven miles out was a big tower that they could,you know,it was a defense fort,a fort was on it and you could land helicopters and other things on it.And so those forts are still out there.So in the 19 sixties,uh a,a group of people started a pirate radio station because it was out of the BB C's uh broadcast jurisdiction so they could,they could broadcast whatever they wanted.So it became a pirate radio station.And then um after that,this guy kind of took it over.He said,well,I'm gonna turn this into a country now.He,he crowned himself king of sea land and his wife was the queen.His son was the prince and he,he battled back and forth over the decades.This is an example of a legend where now you have the king of sea land and a principality of sea.How does that happen?That somebody just declares I'm the king.My wife is the queen.I mean,that's happened many times.This is,this is he defended,he actually defended himself against Britain and then he finally just dropped it and said,ok,you can,you can have have the tower seven miles offshore.Oh,you're kidding.But ok,so the legend,a part of this is,well,that's the legend,the legend of sea.So that is so it's based on fact,based on fact,it's based on historical things that actually happen.But it's been what happens with the legend over time is it continues to grow to grow and it morphs like my basketball game,it gets better every year after I'm done,right?So sports is a great,that's fertile ground.People,people would say it's,you know,it's mythological heroes,but it's actually,you know,in sports,these people actually exist.It's actually legend,people,people confuse the two iconic,legendary.Those are a lot of the terms we use in sports when you talk about somebody with great influence or great history,right?And so,um I,I guess one of the things for me is though we're talking about myth,right?And,and that's different because that's a story that we basically create,we create that story.Yeah.And I think,um people,so we began with sort of the difference between myth and legend.I think in modern times it's kind of become gray because people will say,oh,that is right.Yeah.Because for me,like myth,it,it's a way to describe eternal truths that you can't uh really get your hand on.So you have to have a story and the story tells the myth and through the storytelling,you discover sort of the truth within.That's kind of like for me as a writer and like,you know,doing what we do with folk tellers and the stories resurrecting these old myths and legends.That's what we're doing.I mean,well,you have the,the Detroit,uh what's the Red Dude Rouge,which is the red and that's a myth.Yeah.Or is that a legend?Well,I would say that it is actually probably like,technically,it's probably a legend because people actually saw this,there's documented cases of Red Dwarf.Now,if no one had ever seen it and there were no documented cases.Uh you could probably say that it was a myth.It was something created really almost as a,as an allegory to describe something like evil or,or whatever it was.But,um,but I'm interested in.So let's,let's go down the,the rabbit hole of sports because so much of sports,sports and athletics is built around,you know,the,it really is like the hero's journey into the path and legend.And why do you think this is,why do you think sports is such a great metaphor for modern storytelling and modern myth and legend?Well,to simplify it,you know,I mean,you have the rise,right?And,and typically these,these people rise and,and the athletes rise out of um difficulty struggles,challenges and then as they rise,they,they get to this legendary status and,and that legendary status could be something as simple as,hey,I'm one of the 1/10 of 1% that plays professional,right?That's a legend or hey boy,I'm,I'm a legend in the scoring.I'm a legend in the rebounding.I'm a legend in a category.But then they go through this journey where that goes away,right?In other words,you go from being this legendary,iconic person to suddenly just average Joe right back to the real world.And that's kind of that journey,right?You go from this iconic legendary position to all of a sudden,I'm an everyday everyday Joe and then recreating that success.That's part of that journey.How do they do that?How can they do that?They apply the things that they learned in sports?Because to me,the the the the important part of sports is the lessons that we learned from sports.Because otherwise that journey ends,like when,when the sport ends,that journey ends without that idea that I'm taking what I learned from sports and applying it to the next phase of my life.And yeah,and that's usually the phase that happens that nobody sees.Right.So the,the lights,the lights have gone off,the press has gone home and you still have to have to live your life.Yeah.Well,that's the reality of it.The problem though is that if my identity is that legendary status,in other words,if I have that,if,if my story is my ID as a basketball player as an example,if that's my identity,when that's gone away,that's when the struggles really happen,right?That's when these athletes that you read about,they crash and burn,they,they drug addictions,bankruptcy,divorces.Um Not that that doesn't happen anyway,but it's just a matter of how impactful is that when it happens.And so yeah,the journey is very difficult.I mean,you,you have this hero's journey,right?Where you become the hero,you have overcome these struggles.Uh A lot of these stories,if you look at people that have,look at the boxers,right?A lot of these boxers come from nothing and absolutely nothing and it's their way out and they fight literally to get out of that position.Um You know,Michael Tyson,$300 million.Think about that.That's more than some country's gross domestic product.That guy made over $300 million from his boxing career,but yet he lost it.Right.And that was part of his journey is that he,when he was done with boxing,that money was gone.And so,um,you know,the sad reality is he's slowly trying to find that back to get that,that journey back.But it's,uh,it's not been the same.Yeah.And that,I mean,that,that's kind of like you're your thing.Like what you,what you do,Kurt is,you know,you've got your whole chain like a champion.It really is a movement and it's like,I think,I think you are dealing a lot with fallen heroes.Like,and,and what happens a a after the fall,right?And then I think,you know,so Steve,you've been executive producer of the hero's journey.We're,I mean,we're talking about the hero's journey right now and it's,you know,this,this whole series and it's really,you,the focus of the series is,is on the unsung hero,like the heroes we don't even know about in music.Why don't you talk a little bit about,about that series uh with the,with the black musicians and how all that came to be because,you know,Kurt's focuses on sort of after the fall of the hero.And this is all mythological,right?And this is all we're dealing with,with legendary and mythological people and places.But,um you know,you've spent the past couple of years trying to bring this whole,this whole hero's journey series to light uh trying to elevate uh the black musicians that people know but they don't know their story.Some of them they know and some of them they don't.And um it's kind of been,it's one of those things that's really been lost to history and we can kind of get into why that was because this was like in the United States,this was the segregation era.This is where,you know,uh black artists had to play in black theaters and black venues.And um and it was athletes too though it wasn't just the musicians,it was athletes that deal with this as well.It was also comedians,anyone,anyone in entertainment or,I mean,I guess sports is entertainment but anyone that they were,they were uh in,that was the environment they were in.And so there were all these from,you know,so we're three white guys,but we wouldn't have been able to see these artists and,and even though they exist until like the mid sixties and then all of a sudden it was like,you know,bursting onto the scene but people like,you know,Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin and all,you know,all these other art,well,anyone who was ever made it to big into entertainment out in black entertainment,um came out of that particular circuit,um all the way,as you said,Otis Redding to um uh to Sam Cooke um to uh I can Tina Turner.Um,you know,just,there's,there's many of them that came out of that.Yeah,I think even uh Richard Pryor came,actually came out of that as well.But,um,all of these stories are all heroes journeys and,and I,I think I mentioned in one of the other previous podcasts that a lot of these heroes journeys do not end well.They actually,and very sad in many ways.And so you have this rise and,you know,to,to success and then there's a fall and then you actually come back.But then in many cases,especially with some of these artists,they die young and,and it's,it's,it's very,very sad um with the particular production that we're actually doing.Um,gorgeous George was the MC of this particular circuit and he's still alive.Um And he was kind of the,the,the MC and the promoter and,you know,we talked about me the other day,he was kind of the glue that kept everything together and,um and allowed these people,he kind of really actually kept people out of,you know,made people uh stay on the right track most of the time.Uh In many cases,they went off and did what they want.And uh if they didn't pay attention to George,guess what happened,they got into trouble won't mention the names of,of what you can look those,you can look those particular records up through Google.But uh and uh especially when our series come out,you're gonna be able to see that for yourself as well.But the series that we're creating is an animated series.So it actually takes a lot of the music of the era.It takes George's story.It combines all the arts that we are actually talking about in the previous podcast where you're taking music and you're uh you're taking art,which in this particular case is animation and you're bringing it all together and you're making a beautiful piece.And um and,and in this particular case,it's gonna be a series but it,it truly,you know,uh I i it is the story of this one individual and how he impacted so many other people's lives.He literally,he's still alive,but he is a legend.He literally is a legend.So if you wanted to,if you wanted to read up on a real legend that's still alive.Gorgeous George is that,is that person?Yeah,when there's a,there's the unsung hero and the storyteller because think about it,he was actually the MC that gave a lot of these artists their,their,their start.And as uh I,so Steve and I were actually uh down in Atlanta,we,we spent a couple of days interviewing Georgie.He's like 85 years old now and a real storyteller and loved,loved telling the stories.And it was really interesting is his,he had uh a healthy ego and his own sense of like his own style and his own,he did his own thing.But he was also the one he was like,very giving and a very,very kind person and was willing to lift people up.And so is Steve always teases,like I always say,you know,with folk tellers,the tide lifts all boats.And he was a guy that was willing to like lift all boats.But,you know,he was not shy about saying,you know,his thing was,he was like,they called him gorgeous George because he was the sharpest dressed man,you know,and he had his own,he had his own stick,he had his own own act.And,uh,before he brought everyone up,he would put on a little,you know,a little performance and a,a show for them and then he would,you know,bring people up and let them,let them do their thing and he wasn't afraid of anything and he'll,he'll tell you that even to this day,I mean,he's,uh,his daughter,uh Brandy is also amazing.She's still in the,uh,in the industry.And,um,she actually works with Earth Wind and Fire and,um,she's got a lot of,a lot of different stories of our own.I mean,as you can imagine,uh,working with that particular band but um so we talk about stories,we talk about myths and ledges.I mean,there's no question that that hero's journey is one of those um storytelling platforms,right?And from glory days,my,my show and,and the change like the Champion platform is about the glory days and the change of that.One of the things that I'm seeing as a parallel is athletes,entertainers,which pro athletes are,are entertainers,military as well.They are going through that hero's journey,right?They go from being the hero to all of a sudden,boy and back to reality,back to the Real World and a lot of them struggle with that and they're legends too.Yeah,absolutely.And then how do they recreate their success and,and,and create that story to continue their success?Right?I,I'd speak to more and more military.I was talking to somebody who was a,um,uh special ops ranger and he talked about how he basically is.I'm,I'm trained to do a certain job.That's it.I mean,that's,that's what I'm trained for.I mean,for him it was very particular,um,it was taking somebody who was a bad person out of the pitcher and,but he talked about that,that's what I'm been trained for.That's,that's the hero,right?So to speak.And now he's back in the real world and it's like,well,I can't play this.I don't want you to apply this back in the real world per,per se.But um you know,how do we recreate that success?What's that journey?How do you take that myth?How do you take that legend and,and continue that story?So you got me thinking about the authenticity of the hero's journey of the hero.So,what we've experienced in the real world is we experience the hero being unsung,basically going away and never,never,no one ever knowing or the hero falling and left to their own devices um to pick up the pieces.So my question for you is,where's the authenticity?Is,is the,the myth or the legend of the hero a fallacy?Is it,is it,is there really such a thing as an authentic hero?And what is,what is that authentic hero's journey?And,and you can go back.So if you go look at like sort of the Joseph Campbell model,which a lot of people know and that's sort of the becomes sort of the standard of the hero's journey is you have the hero,you know,setting out embarking on the journey,accepting,accepting the quest,right?Going through the trials and tribulations uh in the saving,you know,fighting the dragon,killing the dragon,saving the princess,right and coming back home,you know,the the the conquering hero.But um I don't think,you know,in modern times,that model does not ring as true and,and like you know,you guys live it.I mean,living with like the,the story of the unsung hero or the the fallen hero and,and,and picking up the pieces this to me,uh sort of begs the question is like,you know,is it,is it,is the hero's journey authentic or is,are you not getting,are you not getting the full story?Because everyone,the thing is that with a story,everyone wants,you want an ending,right?You want and,and we like happy endings.So we want the here to be concrete.It's why like in action adventure movies,the good guys gotta win.I mean,like in your film noir,like then it'll,then the bad guy or the bad guy might win or like you kind of leave like,yeah,that was a film noir,an art film and I'm,I'm leaving because uh it,it,it doesn't end like,you know,just fade to black or whatever.It's like because that's the,that's the format of,of that,you know,of that,that genre of film.But what is the purpose of the hero's journey?Yeah.What is it?Well,if you think about it,the purpose of the hero's journey is not for us,it's for the future,it's for us to be able to look back.It's not like if I'm on my own hero's journey,that purpose is not for me,it's not for you.It's,it's,it's not it's not for Kurt.You know,it wasn't for Jimi Hendrix.It was,you know,they lived their life,but the heroes journey when we look back at their,their lives,we pull purpose from that.The same as I pull purpose from my great uncle that won the FA cup in 1912.Now there's a story that's so,so this is a good,this is a legend.This is a good legend that uh right,right.There's a combination of myth and legend with this story.Yeah.Well,I made him a myth in some case in,in another book that I wrote.But um the actual real story of him is,is a legend because um he's sports related,of course,uh he won the FA Cup and for people that live in America and don't know what that is.That's a football association that's kind of like winning the Stanley Cup in,in uh soccer,football uh in England.And he won that in 1912 for a uh a very,very small town uh called Barnsley.Now Barnsley,I don't know the exact population,but it would kind of be like Royal Oak winning the Stanley Cup,not Detroit,just Royal Oak.Ok.So it's just a small,small,small town.And um anyways,he became almost like a,a legend or a,a myth,mythological creature in my mind when I was a little kid.Why?Because my grandmother had his gold medal hanging around her neck when I was a little kid and she used to tell me the stories of,of her,bro.That was her brother.Right?And what was his name?His name was Jack Cooper.His name?Yeah,his real name was actually uh John Holloway.That's,he was born,uh,with that name.He changed his name to Jack when he was young.Actually,I think they just called him Jack but when he actually went and he moved to,he had to move away from the family because they didn't have enough money to be able to support all four kids.He went and lived with another family and they changed their name again and then when he actually went professional he took the name Cooper.So I hear it,but that's a myth.I don't know if that's true or not.Um,I didn't know,I don't know if it was actually done that and if you do the readings on Jack Cooper and there's a Wikipedia page in that,which in my opinion needs to be filled out more.Um,but,um,but he,he,he's become a legend of that area now,the,er,the reason why is because Barnsley hasn't won the FA Cup ever again.I mean,what are we in right now?2023.So,you know,it was 1912,the last time that they won.That's a long time ago.Well,that's really,so that's,I mean,that's really interesting and,and how mythology penetrates storytelling and in our,in our personal lives because that's really become part of,part of your legacy and part of your personal mythology.Well,I need to say something about that too because you made a point that struck me about how the hero's journey is more about the future too,about how,how it impacts the future.And I'm a history buff.I love history.I think we learn from history and basically,it's like creating history that's not been told.In other words,it's telling that story so that future can,can learn from it.I mean,to me,the purpose of history is to learn from and,and I,I love the Roman Empire.I studied the Roman Empire.One of the things that I'm attached to as far as the story is when the Roman generals would come home to Rome after conquering a land,right?In other words,they'd be away,they'd go and conquer Alexandria or whatever conquering uh area they did,they'd come back and they had these Super Bowl type parades for them right through the streets of Rome.In other words,it was such a big deal that the,the Roman general would be in their chariot.They'd have their,their family following behind with them all dressed in white and chariots behind them.But it's written in history that as these generals are going through this Super Bowl type parade in downtown Rome that they had at somebody in their chair chirping in the general's ear saying all glory is fleeting,all glory and is fleeting in other words.So what,what's next?Right?And that's kind of what you're describing with the hero's journey is it's to set up people to learn this journey,to learn this story.But how does it apply to the future?How do we learn from it for the future?Is that what you were exactly what I'm saying?So then that begs the question,why do we need heroes?Why do we need that legend?That's because clearly we do clearly,we do because we are constantly creating legends,creating myths.We're resurrecting them.Well,why do we,why do we need them?And some of them are back to your question earlier.They're not authentic,they really are,right?Well,we,we see this,yes.And you see the ones,this is what I believe.The ones that are not authentic,fall away.Time,uh Time makes them fall away because they the the truth like,like Walt Whitman said,the job of every poet is to speak the truth for their generation.So the truth never changes.But the words and the context change based on the era that you're in.And so the the legends in my mind,the legends,in my humble opinion,uh myth and legends fall away when they don't resonate the truth for that generation or their marketing money falls away or they run out of marketing money perhaps as well.But I,you know,I'll go back to the question is like,do we need,why do we need heroes?Why do we need myth and legend?Because clearly we do otherwise we wouldn't,we need,we need them to learn from.I mean,if not,we're,we're reinventing the wheel over and over and over again.And it's just like when we,when we were doing the hero's journey,um the series,like with,with all the different artists and I,I told you there was a commonality or a common denominator across all of them and it didn't end good.Those are things that we should be looking at and going.OK.Do we really wanna go down that path?We already know the end.So why are we doing it again?It doesn't make any sense.So it's really,it's captured wisdom,right?That's what myth and legend is in,in my opinion too,it's uh somebody and something to aspire to,right?That's,that's what it is.For me,a hero is somebody to aspire to whether it be a political hero,uh entertainment hero,a sports hero.It causes me like as an example growing up,I had my aspiring people,my heroes,so to speak uh in the names of Larry Bird and,and,and uh Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson and those were the so-called heroes because they were doing something that I aspired to do.And so whether it be in a political rain or in a music rain or in the,uh,atmosphere of,you know,just being in a business,right.I might inspire to this aspire to this hero in this business because they're doing this,it,it,it gives me somebody to,I guess,learn from,uh,also say,boy,if they did it,boy,I'd love to do that.Right.Look what they're doing.Yeah,you could look at it both ways.I mean,there's a lot of people that do have successful heroes journeys and lived a very long life and I'm not saying that living a long life means that you're successful.I'm just saying,you know what I mean?You know,so I mean,you can look at it both ways but either way it's being able to choose and discern between different moments in history of like,what path do I really want to take my life down?Do I want it to go down this path and to go down in flames even though they were super successful for,you know,three minutes or do I want to take more of a longer slow approach where,you know,I can,you know,my life is a bit longer.I'm having a more sustainable success.I have family around me and people that I love and I'm not left with no money and,and you know,it so that,so I gotta say something right now.You can see it.You,that's another,that's a different,the music.It's in the book I sent you.No,I forgot what I was gonna say.No,I did.Um But seriously,so one of the things that I,I think I've aspired to and not to use that word too much in this one.But uh one of the things I aspired to is the fact that we talk about success and typically a hero is attached to success.But I think in my opinion,again,this is the Kurt David opinion that hero needs to be attached to significance,right?Because that's the difference.I could be,I could have success,whether it be in music,in sports,whatever it might be.But am I having significance?Because to me that's a true hero and that's the one that's really authentic,right?Because they're having success.And uh you know,boy,II,I,I'm a leading sport scorer in a sport.OK,great.You're having success,you're my hero.But if I'm having significance,let's say that significance as a professional athlete is boy.Ok,I'm the leading scorer in the league,I get all these accolades,but I'm also having an impact in my hometown because I'm doing this or I'm,you know,to me,that significance is what elevates that real hero and makes him more authentic if that makes sense.No,this is great because what you and Steve are talking about the opposite side of the same coin.So the hero can either be someone you aspire to be more like,or the hero can be a cautionary tale on what not to do.And so,like,I look at this and again,now I,I'm going back,this goes back to,to mythology because when you're dealing with myth and legend,you're dealing in archetypes,you know,and,and a,an archetype is a,is a model.Yes,it's in the book,an archetype is,it means a lot of things.But basically,it's a,it's a model of a certain um behavior or type.So it's,it's a of a type.Yeah,it's a,it's a model.It's a model.So the model,the hero is a model but it's,it's multi,it's multifaceted.So,and what we do as human beings.And this is,this goes back to storytelling.Why,why stories resonate with us is because we see ourselves in them.So you see where I'm going with this.So the hero,it's the mirror.Yeah.And so if you,someone,you aspire to be,when you aspire to be like Michael Jordan or,or Magic Johnson,you saw yourself in that role in their success,in their significance,using your own words.And so that person became a heroic figure for you.And,and conversely what Steve was saying,Steve and I have multiple conversations about this.You may have someone who is significant and is a heroic figure,but they've got flaws and maybe things didn't end well for them and maybe there's things that we've done in our lives that we may not be so,uh,so happy about.Um,because nobody's perfect and you,you see yourself in that as well,you see the flaws and you say,wow.You know,um,and I think that there is an authenticity in both but,um,it's all the way you're sort of interacting with that.Well,it's a heroic figure.Yeah.And,and I guess here's the question.Can you have success without significance or can you have significance without success as a hero?Uh So I will answer that question because I'm actually working on.So,is this another book that you're writing or what is like in the,in the universe?Silver Silver Jack is a,is a heroic figure and he's a African American ballad who travels,uh tells stories through,through music.A balladeer is someone,uh who play is a musician but,but he tells stories just hashtag look it up,he tells stories through song,but his character,he is uh very nondescript.He does heroic things,but he doesn't talk about him.Everyone tells his story.And it's like,Steve and I have talked about this too is like,um,you know,there's the line that,you know,we're all the heroes of our own story,but that's only half the line because the other part of the line is,but you can't tell your own story.It means a lot more when somebody else,someone else has to tell it because otherwise it's just bragging,right.It's when someone else is that when you tell your story.So enough about me talking about me,why don't you talk about me for a while?Then go ahead.I am.I think,I,I think this is all within the realm of what we're talking about is this is all why myths and legends continue on is because as,as I read that,you know,that that passage in the beginning from,from,it's like this is how we find meeting,this is how we find ourselves,you know,uh it's through myth and legend that we find purpose and we find truth.Uh And we need some sort of guide,we need some sort of North Star.So uh these,you know,the figures of,of myth and figures of legend become something either we aspire to or something we're like,well,you might want to avoid that,right?Learn from.Yeah.And so there's like our,our biblical characters,myth and legend.Absolutely.So one of the things too that,that I just heard today as a matter of fact that there's only so so many frameworks of storytelling that are out there right now,right?We talk about the hero's journey,that's a framework,so to speak a platform,right?There's only so many of those out there throughout history,right?All the stories that have been told throughout history,there's only so many platforms or frameworks that have been utilized.Is that correct?I mean,would you guys agree with that?And like I didn't do my homework on that.But the interesting,I think there's like seven.Yeah,so it's not a lot is a point,right?Despite all the different stories there,there's so many story arcs that have um I,I guess the platform is very limited of how many story arcs there are.Yeah,but the actually no,the platform is scaled in infinitely.So maybe that platform is not the word,I mean,it's models,models or framework.Yeah,exactly.But,but to be able to,you know,take a platform,it's great to grab a central character,right?For example,in hero's journey,it's gorgeous George and that becomes,as I said before,the glue that ties all of these secondary characters which were actually very,you know,successful celebrities that made,you know,millions of dollars.But if it wasn't for that one character,that central hero's journey of that one man,those people don't exist,that that's the key,those are the things that interest me as far as the hero's journey.It's not the hero's journey of,I mean,I I'm interested with the,with those other heroes journeys,but how did they get successful?Who was behind them?How did that really happen.That's what really behind the scenes story,which is I,I love telling with from glory days as well.We get that correct.So let me ask you guys this,who,who is the human in your life today?That is the the hero for you.In other words,who is the person or persons that is your hero today?And you know,we all can come up with cliche things like,oh my wife and my kids and then I,and I agree they're like heroes to us.But like,let me start by sharing mine then to me,it's,it's not just one person,it's a type of person to me.Heroes in today's society are the ones that have to overcome.Like I like for me because of my gifted ability in the past that I had for physical abilities.Every time I saw a child that had some type of physical disability,II,I almost was in tears because I was so grateful.I thought,wow,they're,they're my hero because look at what they're overcoming.You know,they were born with one leg or they,you know,they had this disability and they can't do the physical things that I was able to do to me.They were,they were my heroes growing up literally.And so I'd see somebody like that.So that,that was my hero.That was my foundation for that.What about you guys?What would be something that would be considered a hero for you.You're my hero just by saying that you are a mythological hero,by the way,you're on the mailing list for all his books.There will be a test and Steve no books for you.No more books.You ruined it.Damn it.You ruined it before.So before I answer that there was a,a point I wanted to make and I think I'm gonna lose it.You already lost it.I mean,was it about the,the journey?Was it about the hero?Was it about the myth versus legend?No,it was,it was about like the the interplay between,oh about the,the learning from,right?We learned from the hero.What maybe not to do or from?This is what we do.So this is,this is tough because,you know,I spend,I spend my days in myth and legend and like,so,you know,it's kind of like,II I realize um there are many,many hero to me.He,my heroes are people like you said that have,that have overcome and like,as I,as I say,you know,I tell my kids walk through life with humble confidence and,and those are the heroes who have deep humility but deep confidence and conviction for what they do.I mean,you guys are,you guys are heroic in a lot of ways.Bill,our producer.Yeah.Yeah,he knows he,you see,he gave the look.He knows.But he,he's not gonna say because he's humble,right?He's got that humble confidence too,I think.No.But so,so,so for me,it's,there's many people that are,that are heroes that in,that inspire me and they inspire me.A group of people,they inspire me in different ways.No,it's,it's,I really like one of the things about being a storyteller.You also have to be a story listener.You know,if you're a really good storyteller,you're a really,really good listener,you have to be.And I'm fascinated by every because we're all on our own hero's journey.You know,no one gets out of here alive and uh we all have our own pains and struggles and,and to me,like,you know,to hear other people's stories,there's so many heroic aspects to their story.So I don't have any one hero that I necessarily look up to or aspire.But I mean,I,I try to see it in everyone.I try to see the,the um the heroic aspects and everyone.And so this was the point that I wanted to make that you guys were,were talking about um you know,the who you aspire to and,and,and the,you know,he who your,who your hero is and what Steve you hit on a point.And I immediately thought Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.So now we're jumping back into Shakespeare,the movie.So there was a movie called Rosencrantz and Guildenstern and it was Hamlet from the messengers who,who got killed on the ship.It was from their perspective.And so this is something that we do in like my point is whoever the hero is,is really dependent on who's telling the story and the perception and the,and the perspective because you talk to someone like an athlete who's a heroic figure and they'll tell you they were,they're not gonna say it's probably another athlete,a famous athlete.It's probably,they'll say it was my eighth grade teacher or it was my mom or it was my dad or it was some,some just normal person.And,and so what strikes me is like,that's something like,especially in entertainment that they play with now in storytelling.Uh It's,it's the,the context and the point of view of who,you know,who's the hero who's telling,who's telling the story.Gorgeous George,right?That's a,that's a,yeah,that's a great example of that.Yeah,because,because if you were just looking at it from a historical perspective,Gorgeous George was a blip.But you go from his perspective.Yeah,from that lens,from that storytelling lens,it is mythic and legendary because he launched the careers of Jimi Hendrix,Little Richard Otis Redding or Aretha Franklin and nobody knew people that go against what is wrong and they're afraid and they still do it.Are heroes.It doesn't matter what you're at,doesn't matter whether it's sports or politics or,or whatever it may be.It's overcoming that fear like we are all doing just to do this podcast.I mean,you also said you didn't want to do this podcast.I still don't.And,and,and the more we do it,the less,the less I like it.No,I'm just kidding.I love it.But,but it's heroic just in the sake of doing it.I mean,it,it,it seems very small on the scale of what,what the hero is.But any time that you start to speak and you become and you put yourself out there,ok,there's a fear to that and a lot of people can't get,they can't get over that.But what do they say?The biggest,one of the biggest fears is public speaking.So why?Because you,you know,people will shame you or cancel you these days to rotten tomatoes.It's,it's,it's all the same thing,right?So,to me,I'd rather be in a fist fight than speaking in front of a lot of people.I mean,you,you feel comfortable doing that.But I mean,to me,I,I,I'm the other way around.I like the close contact.So I'm,I'm more comfortable with that.I,I love playing ice hockey.But,um,but that doesn't make me a hero because I like doing that.I mean,speaking up really is.That's the number one heroic thing that we can do,especially during times where things are going down the wrong path and we all have a responsibility to do that in my opinion.And,um,and that's what I,those are the kinds of people that I'm looking for,like Martin Luther King who's a hero.I mean,he's a prime example and this is a good way.I mean,we got,we've got to wrap up but this is,this is a good,good way to wrap up because what we're saying is it's not necessarily about um heroes as people.It's,it's heroic acts and actions and the way and you know,and way the way in which you view the world and the risk that you're willing to take,I'll just close with this because this is something worth looking up.So uh Philip Zimbardo did the Stanford experiment and he did the nine the nine things that will trigger evil in,in modern society.So the Stanford experiment,if you don't know,basically,I think it was like 1971 at Stanford.He set up a prison experiment where he made uh students,half the students prisoners,half the students guards and he had to shut the experiment down after a day or two because the guards were just like beating on the,beating him and they were students,they were fellow students.But it was,the whole thing is very fascinating.But from it,he wrote a book about,about how evil manifests and the way you stop evil from manifesting is really heroic at attributes which include,um,saying something is wrong.When everyone else is saying it's not wrong,it's standing up when everyone else is sitting down,it's all,you know,all the things that we know are heroic deeds.It's,you know,those types of things that will prevent,you know,evil in the world.So,uh I'll end this with.We need myth,we need legend and we need more heroes doing heroic things.So,amen.Amen.All right.Thanks guys.Thank you.Great conversation.Great stuff.